Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Qwill on February 21, 2012, 12:35:24 am
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Has anyone tried this, other than a sinew shortbow? I have a piece of vine maple that is about 56 inches long, 1.75 wide that I'm tempted to recurve just to see, but I don't want to have a stiff handle on one so short. Any thoughts? Oh, I prefer not to sinew, but I'll settle on a shorter draw.
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I don't have any experience making what you're describing, but it sounds like the Cayuga bow on page 52 of The Encyclopedia of Native American Bows, Arrows, and Quivers(Steve Allely and Jim Hamm) is pretty darn close to what you're talking about. They have it described as a deflex/reflex and 56 5/16 inches. Hope this helps
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A few years ago some of the guys here on PA got together and built a "Cayuga" style bow and raffled it off. It is a pretty simple design but a very effective bow. This one had coral snake covered tips. 8)
I built a 60" red elm static recurve last year that bends through the handle at full draw. It was in the area of 50#@28"(tillered to 29")
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If you do your part correctly,then you can take that stick out to half its length easy. Now you do the math :P
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I saw this one a while back... cool little bow...
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=20404.0
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Thanks for the info, guys. Is there any chance you can direct me to photos of the bow you guys built, PatB? I'm determined to try this, and I think I've got the right piece of wood for it.
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I built one last year withg osage. I had to put rawhide down because a splinter popped on me during tillering. Its 57" ntn, 54# @ 28". If you go to the Campfire section and check out Clints post about new bowyers gpoing to the classic you will see a pic of mine at full draw. I kilt a deer with it last fall.
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These are the best pics I have of the Cayuga bow we built. I only did one portion of the build and sent on to the next guy.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/cbowbell.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/cbowbrace.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/cbowtip.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/HPIM1188.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/HPIM1199.jpg)
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This is a bend through the handle osage recurve I built a few years back.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/HPIM1590.jpg)
...and a 60" bendy handle elm static recurve I built...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGtradebowelm003g.jpg)
...and another 60" bendy handle osage static recurve...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TwoTips-2.jpg)
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WOAH, nice.
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Def-def-definately going to do the recurve. Those were (to quote Tommy Boy) Awesome!!! Hey, wait, I got two movie references in...Never mind. Long day....
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Okay, I keep coming back to look at these bows. Thanks for the pictures. These little guys are the type of bows I got into this sport for.
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I've got my bow recurves bent. It's currently 51 inches, tip-to-tip. Is 26 inch draw too much to shoot for (a ha ha..) with Vine Maple, without backing?
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I say its way too short with or without a backing, but that is just an opinion. If its 51" ttt you will be hard pressed to get 49 1/2 ntn, add some recurves in there and you have 16-18" of working limb for a 26" draw.
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So you're saying I'm losing 10 inches to recurves?
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Makes sence if your recurves are 5" or more and non-working I think?
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That bow with a sinew backing would be a rocket launcher.
Recurves not only reduce the amount of working limb but they over stress the remaining working limb even more. It's all give and take. Choose your poison. ;)
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I did a short Hophornbeam last year. I think it was 53" and pulled almost 30", @ 50-55#, unbacked. It's in the BOM somewheres.
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I've got started. Recurves bent in, currently straightening/aligning the stave. I measured roughly 43, 44 inches of working limb. I also started a second one in service berry, still green. Recurves bent, but I've got some twisting.
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Makes sence if your recurves are 5" or more and non-working I think?
You know, if ya think about it though, you just can't use the same kinda ratio, sayin you need X amount of working limb for a recurve because the recurve don't work, as you would for a bow without recurves. It just don't work. Say if we had two D bows,
-one was 60" with 5" recurves, so you would say it has 50" working limbs,
-one was 50" without recurves, so you also say it has 50" working limbs,...
...but the recurve, because of the the physical aspect of the bow being longer, the working limbs would have to work less to achieve the same draw length as the working limbs of the 50" non recurve bow. Now if we were comparing two 60" bows, one with recurves, and one without, than the recurve would be more stressed. But that's not what's happening here. So, it just doesn't add up. Also, I have seen a good amount of d bows around that length. With careful tillering I would think it can easily be done. But I don't have as much experience with these bows as the other guys on here. All the short d bows I have made have been sinew backed for the most part, if not at first, than later on. You could always sinew it and be good to go? I think the west coast cali native bows are typically 36" - 40" long and with the sinew pull typically around 25" - 26"? They are wide and flat though, which will reduce set and compression damage. On the green bow, you might wanna strap it down to a board or something for about a month until it is a little drier, it will keep it from twisting as much. Maybe about a month and a half to two months after it is roughed out, and the bows should be dry enough to tiller.
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Yeah, it will be interesting. I've got the Vine Maple straightened and ready for tillering. I may have some tip tweaking to do. I'm shooting for mid 40# range in draw weight at 25-26 inch draw. I think it can be done, and I'm anxious to test it on a chrono. Thanks for the thoughts on recurve limbs v. straight. What I'm curious about, is why are recurve limbs more strained? I understand they store more energy, but some of that has to be physics, not work the limb is doing right? I'm not sure I understand that part of recurves. Anyway. I'll post of pictures of this thing when I'm done.
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With two bows of the same length nock to nock, one with recurves and one without, the one with recurves will strain the working limbs more to reach the same draw length as the other one. It will also strain the limbs more just to reach the same brace height. It creates a bow with a bit more early draw weight, like if the bow was shorter, but because of the recurves you get more draw length, like if the bow was longer.
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Yeah, I get that -- if you measure nock-to-nock. But wouldn't that be true for a bow with stiff outer limbs? Is the same true if you measure working limb length? would a recurve with, say 50 inches of working limb be more strained that a straight bow with 50 inches of working limb? What am I missing?
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(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/HPIM1199.jpg)
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What is happening in this last pic? What is the foil for? You make those deep bends look easy! What is that radius?
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This is a bend through the handle osage recurve I built a few years back.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/HPIM1590.jpg)
...and another 60" bendy handle osage static recurve...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TwoTips-2.jpg)
these two. What are these radius? Can that be gotten in hickory?
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I did it! 26 in draw at about 45 pounds. I'll get photos up by the end of the week. I'm steaming the last of the bark off the back tonight, and I still have to lighten the recurve areas. I can't wait to shoot it....
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PB, the foil was used to hold in the heat after I bent the curve so it would cool slowly. Some times I do this with thick wood and doo it in sessions. Heat for a while, wrap in foil and let the heat sink in then go back and heat more. This helps get heat way down into the wood to help the bend take.
I would have to measure the radius. I usually find something round, trace it and see if it fits what I want. ;)
I believe the first and second pic used the same form. I did all of these with dry heat and oil to prevent scorching. I heat the area to be curved until the weight of the bow begins to bend the wood. The form I used for the sharp recurve has a metal strap to support the belly side of the curve as I bend the tips.
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There is an elegance to those bottom two that reminds me of the wife. A bit exotic, long, lean, graceful sexy. . . the stuff of fantasys. They are probably a bitch to make right?
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looking foreward to seeing this bow
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PB, once you get these recurves right they usually stay there. They do take a little tweeking to get the tips to line up though. ;)
I'll have "Two Tips" at the Tenn. Classic in early May, hedge. She is a 60"t/t osage static recerve selfbow whit chokecherry bark backing. 55#@26".
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Pat, I'm looking forwar to it.
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not sure if it's been said yet, but the Inuit bows were bendy handle recurves. Bryce has made some, I think, and I'm planning on it when I gain the skill.
JS
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Finally got around to finishing this bow, which I said I would post pictures of. This is a 53 inch vine maple recurve, with about 1.5 inches of set, as you can see. It's 48 pounds at 26 inches of draw.
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Here are two more photos. Oh, I forgot to mention, it's unbacked with a heat-treated belly. Shoots as nice as I've had for a short bow. Now to find some more vine maple. I do have a service berry bow with similar dimensions I've got recurves bent into already. We'll see how that works.
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Looks like a great ambush bow. I like it!