Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: druid on November 17, 2011, 09:55:45 am
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Long time ago we talked about dogwood abilities. I had some average sapling and decided to try all its abilities. Off course, it had to be warbow. Sapling was a little snaky, twisted, with few bumps and few transverzal knots across the belly. Had almost 1" of reflex with two strange deflexed places in the middle of the limbs. This is in what it transformed: Dogwood warbow, 140# 31", 72 ntn, 35 mm wide and 26 mm thick, with high crown, no string follow. It is visible that in the handle is all sapling width used, cambio is on the sides. A lot of early draw weight.. off course- pic in front of the wooden wall.Tiller could be better. Stained with walnut stain and everything as always. Overall impression: amazing wood, cornus sanguinea...
I consider this bow as experimental bow, it is not quality enough to be keeped. I will try all kind of experiments on him: overdrawing, cold full draw and etc to see where are the borders of this wood, but seems that it is close to it's limits.
(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2732/relaxq.jpg)
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9821/backhyt.jpg)
(http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/6044/bock.jpg)
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6068/back2z.jpg)
(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/5246/brejs.jpg)
(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/7633/fullkh.jpg)
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Experimental or not it is still a great looking bow. :)
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I know im gonna get in trouble and edited by an admin for saying this,but sometimes in certain situations its appropriate to say....sooooo
Holy .... that is ....... bad ...
INCREDIBLE bow Druid. You better enter this for bom
Is that acceptable?
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That is a great looking bow,don't look like you are straining to bad for 130 lbs.You must be a pretty stout young man. :) :) Dog wood does make a good bow,never tried one that heavy 50 is more my style but I know it is good for that. :)
blackhawk ;) :) :)
Pappy
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Druid, not sure what you don't like about the full draw picture. Looks spot on to me. You look almost relaxed drawing 140#. Love the look of your sapling bows and the way they transform from what looks like a natural stick from the forest floor to a graceful arc.
Your European dogwood sounds very similar to the gray dogwood (cornus racemosa) which we have here. It makes a fine arrow shaft and now I will be trying some as bow wood. Thank you.
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Nice bow Druid. You look like you hold that back with some ease. I'm 5'11", 200 pounds, and I went down from a 60 pound bow to a more comfortable 50 pound.
140 pounds........I'd be going to the doctor after pulling that back a few times.
Love seeing your bows.......... great work.
dmc
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I will never understand what it takes to draw that much. Im far from a small guy and I am built reasonably stout. I shoot every day all year with 50-60# bows. I pulled a 93# Dwyer longbow last winter and that was more than enough. I see you guys holding 100-130# bows for a pic, at 30" no less. What gives?
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I am glad you like this bow.
My face maybe do not reflect but I am under great pressure to hold it for a second on full draw. I am 70" tall and 165 lb body weight but my arms are above average strong (beacuse off blacksmithing, trunk loading on my job and gymnastic in teenage years). In fact, I have problem with my trapesoid muscle about coming to full draw. But when I once achieve that I lock my shoulder there solid good. This bow is short for this draw and weight, my fingers are not very happy pinched. Better solution should be at least 75-76" long but this sapling was so short.....
Midlimbs should work little more but twist makes some problems, while canting.
I think I will not allow it to live long enough for BOM. ;)
Drawing techinks by Jaroslav Petrina heleped me much in this situation. Without that I was helpless against this bow.
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Pearl drums, I have no words to describe you my feeling while drawing so heavy bows, something amazing....so powerfull!!! :) :) :) I am addicted to heavy weights.
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This is a very cool looking bow just like all your others Druid! 8) I'm not into heavy bows(I have built one 95#@30" yew warbow) but love looking at them and guy guys drawing them. Using a sapling for a 140# bow is quite impressive!!! ;)
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Another sweet bow Druid. Tiller is spot on as far as I can see(but I have TDS-tiller deficiancy syndrome). Just be careful with a 140# bow and testing the limits. Love seeing you work, makes me think of our ancestors.
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It looks like you just took the whole darn tree and added some nocks at the ends. :) :)
I really like sapling bows and this is a beautiful example.
Gabe
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Nice one Druid.
I'm getting worried about the 90# I'll be making next, dunno if I'll ever pull over 100# but I might have to try it if I manage the 90#
The dogwood we get round here is more of a small shrub with red shoots, does your dogwood go by any other name. or is it the same stuff?
Maybe you shoul take the shirt off for the next shot and attract some more ladies to the forum :laugh:
Del
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Yes Pat, this sapling is very strong. ;)
Eric, I am glad te remind us to our ancestors.
Ross, you are almost right. :)
Del, this is flowering dogwood as far as I know. (I am doing that with ladies on one other forum >:D) ;D ;D ;D
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Del, the dogwood you have with red stems is probably red osier dogwood. It makes good arrows and I guess if you find a shoot big enough and straight enough it would make a good bow. I don't know about 140# though.
We have flowering dogwood, pagoda dogwood and kousa dogwood(Chinese import) here. All tree type dogwood. I've never tried any of these for bows but I know a few that have made good bows from flowering dogwood. Red osier, silky, grey, rough leaf and other shrub types of dogwood all make good arrows.
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nice bow druid, perfect tiller and...respect.... for pulling it. if you lock your elbow like that though, when shooting a heavy bow of that design you'll likely ruin it before long, only thinking of your elbows...no criticism......
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Druid
I hurt just to read this!
I as a young man would shoot some heavy bows but not in many years now !
You are a very good Boyer !!
I have a need to share something to you lest you don't understand !
You are a young man ,I am not ,please think about this !
Please be sure to pull weight with both sides(shoot left handed as well as right handed )so your body does not get out of balance! If you don't you run the risk of great damage and lots of pain that may not stop for the rest of your life ! Trust me that a torso that cramps it self into a twist that causes your ribs to slide out of place is not something you will enjoy or want to do the therapy to readjust ! Please be carefull my young friend !
I want you to still be enjoying this great addiction when your grandchildren come to visit !
I do admire your work , keep it up!!
Guy
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Dragonman, Buckeye Guy, thank you very much for you friendly advices, they are totaly correct. But I am specific kind of man- I can not stop my passion about heavy bows, it is stronger than me. I do not take drugs, gambling or something like that but heavy weights are my passion, simply unstopable. You are right about potential body damages, I know that but.... :-[
Maybe if MR archers could do it all life and die from ages, maybe it is not deadly but could be painfull, for sure, after some years.
One more time- thank you my friends!!!
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(I am doing that with ladies on one other forum >:D) ;D ;D ;D
Druid,
You make amazingly simple and beautiful bows, but there is nothing simple about their craftmanship. You just make it look easy.. I have enjoyed looking at ALL your bows. And you are a rather funny chap from the quote above.. Keep up the good work ;)
Cipriano
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Hell if you don't want to keep it ill take it!!! ;D ;D What a bow! Asolutely incredible druid I envy your skills. Truly a master.
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Thank you Cipriano and Ifrit.... :)
I am far away from master....decades of years and thousands of bows must pass to become skillfull as Marc, Tim, Steve...forgive me for non-mentioning other real master-bowyers....
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All that talent and yet still humble ! I like your style, not only in the bows you craft, but the manner in which you conduct yourself. Another elegantly simple masterpiece. Josh
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I do not take drugs, gambling or something like that but heavy weights are my passion
The first time my wife asked me "how many bows do you need to make?" I basically had this response (just swap out "heavy bows" for simply "bows").
She's been much more encouraging ever since! ;)
Lovely bow btw. I'm sure there's some stout chap who would love to have your "experiment".
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Again love the braced on the pole pic!
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Experiment is finaly done. Bow is broken, and some things are better visible now. To confirm as I said before: sanguinea is amazing wood, realy strong and tough. But it has one weakness: its knots. As I suspected, wood failed at that spots. What is reason for that? I do not know. This wood is realy hard and strong but its knots are like from some other wood- they are so soft and brittle and not maching with rest of the wood. Drawing further than 32" knots colapsed, one by one and all made one big crysal. Rest of the wood is intact. Bow is broken in one side knot that had core paralel with belly surface but across it.
I have pics of the brakage to discuss about it. On this pics seems that neutral plane is very close to the belly. Maybe some more expirienced members can say more about it, and how this cross section reflected on neutral plane position?
(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/8083/dscf0855w.jpg)
(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4447/dscf0856e.jpg)
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1130/dscf0857n.jpg)
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4215/dscf0859r.jpg)
(http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/888/dscf0860t.jpg)
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6062/dscf0861x.jpg)
(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7572/dscf0874u.jpg)
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6620/dscf0875y.jpg)
(http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5933/dscf0862o.jpg)
(http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8788/dscf0863d.jpg)
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Incredible bow and great analysis, I always love to see your work Druid and this one is just another amazing example of what a great bowyer you are. I think your assessment of the break is accurate and a great example of the neutral plane. Did you heat treat the belly? I have found on some of the white woods like Vine Maple and Crepe Myrtle that it will often Chrysal with heavy heat treating.
Again really loved the look of that bow. Looks like it just came off the battle line of a distant war.
BTW: we have a fair amount of flowering dogwood around here. Going to have to give it a try.
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That sucks i bet that went with a bang.
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Impressive bow. Too bad it broke.
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I thought the tiller looked like the arc of a circle, but you thought is was not perfect. Was the break near the mid limb that you said should be working more?
I notice with the sapling bow style that tillering on the belly leaves this area close to flat and the back remains rounded in the original form of the sapling. This would tend to move the neutral plane closer to the belly. A classic war bow from a large tree stave would have the back flat and the belly more rounded. I believe your analysis of the crysals leading to failure is correct. Maybe cross grain fiber orientation rather than softer wood at the knots is a cause for this. There appears to be layer separation between growth rings at the tension side of the break possibly indicating this material is weaker between annual rings - similar to our osage. In choosing osage for bows we look for a ratio of late (stronger) growth greater than the early (weaker) layers. Also, the position of the neutral plane would indicate that this type of wood has more ability to stretch than to compress and future designs might try to incorporate this.
Did the bow explode like yew or break more slowly?
Very fine bow and experiment. Hope you were not hurt when it broke.
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i hope you didn't get hurt, but if you don't mind me asking.......... did it go boom ::)
(sorry, im a teenager, i like explosions >:D)
by the way, until then that bow looked amazing
noel
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Druid,
I am constantly amazed at all the variety in the group conversing on this site. Your skill interests are different than mine but I sure enjoy seeing your work and learning from you critique of the bow. Keep sharing with us.
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Thank you friends very much... I ilke to tests wood and bows on different ways, it is also good way for learning. Keenan- no it was not heat treated. Its crown was too high and I didnt think it is good idea.
Shaun, yes, it broke near midlimb. I think that with this cross section (it is better for sure to be little wider and with smaller crown) pritty good matched compresion and tension abilities (correct me if I am wrong). It booomed in my hands. Just exploded! :)
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Great bow!!! but 140#s ouch :)
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I wonder if dogwood is one of those good but sensetive bow woods. Maybe it would benefit for a little sinew or similar backing just to relieve the strain a little. Not sure if this would help stop the belly chrysalling but it might.
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Yeah, forget that the tiller looks great. He's pulling a 140# bow!!!
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Soon will be more warbows, stronger and better, I promiss. ;)