Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kegan on July 10, 2007, 03:30:55 pm
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It seems that I have been spending alot of my time shooting a variety of the bows I've made off and on. Well, for a few days I had been shooting longbows (68+") and then switched form the traditional flatbow to a simple little hickory D bow. What a difference. The longbows were forgiving and nice shooters, but even with matched or underspined and light arrows the were slow.
The short bow, however, even with overspined arrows, shot with great speed, at a shorter draw. The bow was much farther from center shot as well.
It seems that little bows don't get as much attention as they should ???. They seem like top performers to me.
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Bows of all different lengths have there advantages and disadvantages it just depends on what you want to do with it.. If designed and tillered properly a long bow can shoot equally as fast as a short bow and vise versa....its more the design, tiller, type of wood. Some wood needs to be longer/wider to store energy some can get away with shorter narrower designs. :)
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Bows of all different lengths have there advantages and disadvantages it just depends on what you want to do with it.. If designed and tillered properly a long bow can shoot equally as fast as a short bow and vise versa....its more the design, tiller, type of wood. Some wood needs to be longer/wider to store energy some can get away with shorter narrower designs. :)
Ahhh... makes sense. I was just comparing two hickory bows, and the longer one, despite having the heavier drw weight, seemed to shoot slower when compared to the short bow. I was just eading an old article in Primitive Archer, "A tale of Two Bowyers" where they described the use of 22" draw bows or 43" as "screamers", which got me and thinking about the many short bows of the Native Americans. I klnow they took what peices they could get, but maybe the weren't "settling" for the shorter peices?
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It could also have somrthing to do with wether the stave is from the reaction part of the tree or one stave just may have better properties for being a bow than another. All bows are good, some just better than others.
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I would suggest that the long bow was probably overbuilt. It is possible to get 170 fps out of a bow at 24" then draw it to 28" with a higher draw weight and shoot 170 fps. Different bows have different ideal draws. Like Ryan said, tiller etc.. You certainly can make a 68" bow that shoots fast. Justin
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The longbow is most likely over built for your draw length(to long with excessive mass for your draw length) but may perform better at a longer draw. For a straight stiff handled bow for my 27" draw length I prefure around a 64" bow at the longest. Although if you recurve the tips and or make a bendy handle I can go much shorter. Ive made a few as short as 50"ntn.
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However slower , the longer longbows seem much more accurate(stable) ... and shoot a heavier , more lethal arrow.. We shoot eyebrow high LB's and seldom miss.... ::)
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What Justin said made sense- the shorter bow IS closer to maximum draw than the longbow, which seems that it is drawn quite far under it's potential leaving it with extra mass on the limbs, which also means that it, despite not beoing as fast, is much more durable, and as gpw said, more stable- correct? Hmm, these sticks are complicated things, aren't they ;D?
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Very generally speaking longer bows have a geometric advantage, solely in terms of potential for cast, no amount of engineering can replicate in a shorter bow. But I agree with the general concensus that lots of other factors weigh for and against long or short bows. When you really get down to brass tacks, there ain't a nickle's worth of difference in any bows and in the grand scheme of things, assuming all well designed and crafted. Don't get me wrong, you can make a bad bow which performs significantly below a good bow. But all good bows are pretty darned close to each other. I tend to prefer to judge a bows merit on things other than cast, for this reason.
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Okay, then how about this- from what I have been reading and what not about short bows in the back issues of PA, what are eervyone's thoughts about these methods for increacing perfromance of a shortbow?
1. Stiff tips- less stack
2. Wide flat limbs(2") with narrowed handle- distribution of stress and concentraiton of bend in handle and to mid-limbs
3.highly reflexed/recurved- more bending/farther capabilities
4. D-style- more overall working limbs
I have a short locust stave that I want to sinew and turn into my next hunting bow. Around here the brush can form a virtual wall and last year my longbows kept gettign caught up while stalking. From what I gathered, a good layer of sinew and the above steps should help increase the odds of a good shootin' shortie?
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On shorter bows I like to kick the tips up a little(static tips) to help increase draw length without loosing the string, decrease finger pinch and add a little extra zip. When I do this, I want the working parts of the limbs to come into the fades so there is more working limb. I can't help with locust because I have bad luck with it but others will recommend about locust for you. I would recommend flat belly, or almost flat for locust. Pat
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The peice is dried into a relfex, then I'll use heat to bring it isn some more and use the sinew to help in the end. This should also fight set. But the peice is all sapwood with a flat belly and decrowned back (because of the use of sinew). I am getting anxious though, I keep thinking this is gonna be alot of fun ;D.
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1. Stiff tips- less stack
Effective.
2. Wide flat limbs(2") with narrowed handle- distribution of stress and concentraiton of bend in handle and to mid-limbs
Effective.
3.highly reflexed/recurved- more bending/farther capabilities
Tends to add stress to already heavily taxed limbs in my view. Adds mass on the outer limbs. Theoretically justified, hard to demonstrate in practice.
4. D-style- more overall working limbs
Sacrificies string angle.
It's all a giant circle, one trade off leading 'round the mulberry bush to the next. Quality of materials, craftsmanship weigh pretty heavy in the grand scheme of things.
The best short bow design I've used so far, among four distinct variations I've tried in 6 or 7 specimens incorporates 1. and 2. Other less desirable ones used 3. and 4. and some others, deflex in the handle w/ modest recurve for example. I'm currently enamoured with a mild r/d in a backed bow but haven't tried it for a shorty.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/abc0704.JPG
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/abc0705.JPG
What do you consider short? This one is 58" for 63# @ 28". Makes 3# per inch from 24" to 28".
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Longer bows are good for hunting on foot. Generally speaking they will show less stacking and better accuracy at longer ranges. Short bows are good for hunting from horse back. Of course there are always exception to the rule. How short is short and how long is long? I like bows 62-66 in long for my 26 inch draw. Jawge
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I have to agree with George. Long for hunting on foot, short for horses. Short also works for blinds some times, but longer is more stable as a general rule. I also like 62-66", but I draw 29. Justin
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My first short(60") static recurve took me forever to harness. I had been shooting straight limb bows 64" to 66" and for my 26" draw they were very stable shooters in the 55# range. My osage ELB that is 70" long is extremely stable. The first 3 arrows out of her were within 4" of each other at 20yrds. Thats with a tillering string, no string nock and unfinished handle. I think a bow with heavier physical weight would be more stable than a lighter weight bow(everything else equal). Shorter bows recover quicker than longer bows(everything else equal) because there is less length (and mass)to move...but it all comes down to the right design for the wood type or better yet, the right wood type for the design.
Pat
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I am a believer in the man tall bow, give or take a little. I tend to make most of my bows in the 60" range but this last year have moved them out to more like 64 to 68 and like them better. Steve
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I make "shorties" and like ta shoot 'em. But when it comes ta huntin' Iam with Steve . Like 'em 64" ta 68"..................bob
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I found that 64" for my 26"draw is as good as it gets ;D ;D ;D ;D
Longbows for hunting rule ;)
BTW I'm in the process of making my next hunting bow, and it's gonna be a sinew 58"er,....and I'm really worried if I'm going to be able to hunt it, so far all the misses came from short bows in hunting situations,...but boy they shoot good on the target range ;D
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I'm with badger I use to make mine around 60 thought it would be better for hunting but have found I like 64/66 better even 68 ant bad.Seems to be a little smoother and don't stack nearly as
much.I usually start most if I have the wood at 68 and near completion I cut off a couple of in. and
tweak my tiller,just a little insurance. :)
Pappy
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Well, in all fairness this bow is more for the fun of building a nice little shortie than anything else. I have a good strong longbow at 68"- as everyone said, it is very stable. Hey, if it isn't what I'm looking for, then it'll make a fun target bow, or possibly a squirrel machine ;)?
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Kegan, I was always a straight limbed bow kinda guy with bows in the 64 -66" lengths but for some reason lately (last 2 years) I've been building mostly static recurves(I guess some have static reflexed tips) in the 60" range. I still like the 64-66" bows and plan to make one soon. I have also started a 50", sinew backed, bendy handled, ERC bow and a 74" ash ALB. Variety IS! the spice of life! ;D Pat
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Being 6'3"... we like our bows @ 72"...I know it's not the optimum bow length for speed , but shoots accurately and really casts those heavier/longer arrows ... little finger pinch , and smooth stackless draw is a bonus...Quiet too...We limit our Primitive hunting range at 15 yards... anything in that distance , and it's ours ...hahahahahahaa ;D
PS , our favorite bow is a 72" ELB (flatted D belly )made of hickory backed eastern red cedar 54lbs@28"...with 3" glued in Perry reflex... Fast ...shoot where ya look ..Light weight(mass), deadly ...killed a mess of foam deer...hahaha True !!!