Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: markinengland on August 03, 2011, 06:52:28 pm
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I'm looking to get some damascus steel arrowheads made up for bamboo and cane arrows. I reckon these would be really lovely and work well and be a bit special. These would be tanged to fit the boo. Ideally, for it to sell it would meet the requirments of many bow hunters who like to use bamboo or cane.
What would you look for?
At the moment I'm thinking of a straight angled non barbed head, something like one and one quarter inch wide and maybe 2 inches long as I think this should meet most hunting law requirments. It might be heavier than the average commercial arrowhead, a little more like a war arrowhead.
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"What would you look for?", a local blacksmith or maybe look for a fairier, they often do smithing also. There is a large knife company in the Smokey Mnts., Tennessee that sells damascus blanks if you're wanting to make your own by cutting out and finishing. Sounds like a neat idea, kinda surprised I haven't seen that already. ??? Making your own damascus is a fairly technical deal, but doesn't require a lot of tools. That being said, I am a welder/instructor and have a shop set-up more towards metal work than wood working. I've never made damascus, but it's on my list.
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I'll post some tomorrow, Marc, that I friend made for me.
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i can't wait to see them too Eddie.i have offen had the same idea.
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I've ordered some stock Damscus steel arrowheads from a dmascus steel specialist. These are more replica war arrow heads than for hunting though. I've got some ideas of my own based on old English hunting heads. I want to weigh the arrowheads when I get them and then do a drawing of what I think a hunting head should look like.
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i dont do damascus, but i make steel arrowheads look like they been flint knapped. check out some of the knives i done and tell me what ya think
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Mark; If they are heavy, just drill some small holes in the blades at the base. You could also angle the holes, like a cheese grater, and that would cause more wound bleeding. ;)
Wayne
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PS;
I forgot to mention that on the holes, if you angle the holes, like on a cheese grater, then do one side, and then turn the blade over, and do the other side, and you could even take a punch, and raise it up a little.
I don't know if it will whistle or not. ::)
Wayne
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Here's three. We were experimenting with different styles. The holes were needed to keep the weight down.
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Interesting. Wish I could see them for real. Look really nice.
What do you feel a sensible maximum weight for a hunting head is?
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Mark, I like to hunt with 125grn points but a lot of people like 140- 160. That is where these points are running.I don't think more than 160grns would interest people, but, I may be wrong. I'll take some better pictures with a tape measure beside them and give you the weights of each point.
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love those point if i ever get anything that looks that good i let you know.
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I build a couple knives each winter and have for quite a few years and have made trade points out of the scrape peices of blanks. ( damscus) I make my trade points 1 1/8 x 2 3/4's. But mainly out of old saw mill blades 1095 steel. You can harden then temper these as well as demscus in the kicten over. And there alsome when sharpen and they stay sharp much harder (58 to 60 ROCKWELL) than the store bought heads (54 to 56 ROCKWELL). Yours will be harder to sharpen but the difference is night and day they stay sharp forever. And your right they look exstreamly good on shoot arrows. All you need is the steel (blank) and a hachsaw, bench grinder and makeing a match set isn't a problem.
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Well, I got some samples. I thought I'd share them here.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/MarkinEngland/arrows/P1020196.jpg)
They're not quite what I'm looking for but they are pretty! (and fairly practical as well I reckon).
Mark in England
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Wow, I am a MAJOR sucker for anything Damascus (used to collect old english double guns with damascus tubes)...anyway, why aren't you happy with any of the heads? I think there are at least 2 that look promising to me for use on a cane for deer hunting. Thanks for sharing the "eye candy" >:D
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Eye Candy is right!! Boy those look nice.
Since you don't like em...maybe you want to get rid of em. ;D
Bet that one on the bottom would do a ## on varmits. What do they weigh?
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Lee,
It's not that I don't like them. They are lovely bits of metalwork, are well made and would certainly be quite effective. They are just not quite what I would need to make a good damascus steel hunting broadhead widely available. I've sent off a drawing that I hope would generally be legal for use in most places where bowhunting is allowed.
Bowtarist,
The weights vary between 225 grains for the swallow tail head, 146 grains for the leaf shaped broadhead, 134 grains for the crescent moon head, 110 grains for the curved edge broadhead and 105 grains for the straight barbed broadhead.
Mark in England
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Those sure are pretty! Wouldn't mind having a couple dozen of them!
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Those sure are pretty! Wouldn't mind having a couple dozen of them!
Me too, Matt!
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Mark, How do you go about gettin' a couple of them cresent points?
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Wow! I know who to talk to when I want some D-steel down the line.
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Looks like I'll need to buy 50 to 100 at a time - so cash flow is an issue right now. I'd like to be able to offer them all but perhaps the biggest demand would be a broadhead that is legal for use throughout most of the world, particulalry the US.
I've drawn up a slightly larger head than the ones shown in the picture and await a reply. Would this be hunting legel where you are?
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/MarkinEngland/arrows/Mahillbroadhead2.jpg)
If I remember correctly a broadhead generally needs to be more than 1.25 inches across and without barbs in many States. I guess that a tie-on trade type point might also suit shoot shafts, but I do like the idea of a tanged head to go with Boo/Cane arrows. Any suggested improvements?
They would never be as cheap as conventional commercial heads but I reckon they could look very special as well as cutting well.
Thanks,
Mark in England
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I like the drawing, but I don't think they need to be that wide, 1 3/8". I'm pretty sure 1", 2.54cm, is legal in the states. Ya'll correct me if I'm wrong. I use a 125g. broadhead, some like them heavier though.
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Bowtarist,
Thanks. I may take the size down a bit then.
Mark
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Most States is 1" or 7/8" wide. Florida is 7/8" regardless of shape, barbed or not
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3/4" width here in WV Mark. I like an 1 1/8" cutting width myself. Single bevel edge though. I like the looks of the concave shoulders better than the straight. Oops, probably have to do the beveling ourselves. Great looking heads! Art
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That draw up looks good Mark. Here in MI it is a 1" blade no barbs. I like the tang option as well for the boo/cane/phrag's. a 125 - 135 grain head is good too. if there is a need for no tand I think guys could just cut off the tang portion, no? I know I'd take 1/2 - 1 dozen of em.
Cool stuff.
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I've drawn up a few alternative smaller shapes.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/MarkinEngland/arrows/img031.jpg)
Simple straight edge, just over an inch wide.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/MarkinEngland/arrows/img032.jpg)
Same size but a more gracefull curved cutting edge.
Due to the work needed to make the basic Damascus steel material and then hand forge these heads they will never be cheap. Still, when funds allow I think I'll get a hundred made and put them in my ebay shop. I like the idea of a damascus steel head on a tonkin bamboo arrow flying through the woods in hunting season. :>)
Mark in England
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Nice looking drawings. There is a knife company in Finland called Martini that has a layered steel knife that they stamp out of a sheet of layered steel, not quite damascus, but similar. Maybe you could look into something like that an keep the costs down some. Just a thought.
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I have some made by Doug Campbell that are awesome-I do not know if he makes or sells them anymore probably you could find his website and ask.
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Mark,
Have you given any thought to the "splitting" effect of the tang inside the cane shaft? Even when tightly bound (hafted) the cane can still split upon impact. A small washer arrangement that matched up to the head and allowed for a even contact around the perimeter of hollow tube could go along way to stopping that condition (much like the doubleheaded nail target points do. A basic "standard weight" (say 125 grains) could be increased by different thickness washers or more than one starndard washer. It's just a thought.
rich
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Rich,
Yes, that is a consideration. From what I have seen the shafts of most boo/cane arrows with tanged heads were bound just behind the head. This would provide resistance to splitting. That so many old bronze and steel arrowheads had tangs, especially in the east where bamboo was used for arrows suggests they worked OK.
Essentially, if a trade point can fit into a slot in a wooden shaft without splitting, a tang can as well.
There appear to be two slightly different types of tanged heads used in the past. Some had a collar that seats against the end of the shaft, some are simple flatter shapes.
Forging a head with a thicker seat to provide the collar would add weight to the head. Not a problem with war arrows but might be heavy for hunting? These are also more expensive as they are more complex to make. I'd like to get that type eventually, but I've got to start somewhere.
The simple tanged head has a small flat to seat against the end of the shaft or within a short slot. It would rely on a good fit and bond to the inside of the shaft and binding on the outside of the shaft. Use of a modern epoxy gue in the shaft and thread or sinew on the outside should work.
In my youth I used to make up heads from nails, with simple forged flats for the actual head. I made them a tight fit into the shaft, bound the end of the shaft and then force fitted them in. Any impact then just forced them tighter, the binding stopping any splitting.
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At long long last I have my Damascus steel hunting broadheads.
They look pretty nice so I thought I'd share (if I can remember how to post pictures!)
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a277/MarkinEngland/arrows/P1020362.jpg)
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Very nice looking head, Mark. Do you know the physical weight? Will you flip that ruler over so we can see how big it is in inches? ::) ;)
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Pat 60 mm would be 2.36 inches.
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Sheesh, Pat didn't you go to school?! ::) ;D ;D
Ok, ok, they didn't teach it when I was in school either. Well not until I was almost out, and I didn't consider it worthwhile, since the "Kings" version of measurement, or SAE, was quite sufficient for me, and my rather handicapped mathimatical skill level. ;) ;D
Beautiful Arrow head! 8) You need to save up your Euros, and get him to forge you a knife blade, and a Hawk head! ;) Bowtarist, Marttiini of Finland makes unbelievably sharp knives, and they will litterally shave you right out of the box. they are very light, and make fantastic hunting knives. I have a bunch of them, and give them as gifts.
I think the layered blade you are thinking of is Mora, of Sweden. they have both solid blades, and layered blades. They are also fantastic knives, and will take quite a beating, and make great utility knives as well as hunting knives, and survival knives, and will also take on a litterally razor sharp edge. I have some of them also, as well as a few blade blanks. Sorry to add this to the same reply, but it does save time and space. ;) Again, Mark that is a beautiful Arrowhead! :o
Wayne
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I haven't read the whole thread. What is the circular one for? Those are lovely.
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Wayne, when I went to school the abacus was in vogue. I do know that there are about 39" in a meter. ;D
Thanks Cipriano. That puts it into perspective.
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Wow, :o wow!
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Pat, we had an abacus in school, but that was grade school, and I couldn't pronounce it, so I left it alone, and stayed with my fingers and toes, since I could do fractions, because of the fact that half of my right big toe got ate by a bicycle sprocket and chain, when I was 3 years old. Just unlatched it, slicker than snot on a door knob! ;) Of course the Abacus is actually quite a useful bit of engineering, and the Chinese used to have annual contests with it, competing with hand held calculators, and the masters of it won more than lost. Been around quite awhile. But I doubt the metric system will stick. ......... ::) But the military has been using it for quite some time. But then again they also thought Billy Mitchell was nuts. ;)
Wayne
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Anytime Pat ;)
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I haven't read the whole thread. What is the circular one for? Those are lovely.
It's an old medieval style hunting head for Birds and small game (type 6 forker) the idea is the points dont penetrate the flesh too much,the force of the strike is enough to knock the bird of his perch for retreival.
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oh my mark that is one amazing looking head i loce the slight curve to the edge.
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Excellent work, Wow!!
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I like those, Mark. How much do they weigh?
Pat, type in "60 mm in inches" on your Google search. ::)
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Mullet,
They weight around 340 grains. This weight could be reduced if the tang is either thinned for a tradepoint type fit or made narrower to fit down a boo/cane shaft.
Mark
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Cool, that's what I was thinking.
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Mark are you selling any of these yet?
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That second one downs not bad a little narrow. I don't care for heads that attach like that. But damascus. LOOKS are nice but they have to be temper to match the steel.
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CherokeeKC,
Yes, on ebay.
Crooketarrow,
The heads have been tempered as would be done for a knife. Seem to cut pretty well.
Mark
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Thats a grat looking head but for general hunting. It's to wide for me a lot of addad weight for hunting. Get I've MADE AND SHOT dozzens of different designs. Although HOWARD HILL FAVORED THE 3 TO 1 RATUO. I found out people in general like looks and not whats better in general.
I make some every year for people.I've settled on 2 3/4 x 1 1/8 ,16 th, 5 30 seconds even 1/8's very good looks plus practial in hunting. WEIGHTING 190 to 250 depending on thickest. Not barbs the shoulder have to be well tapered for easy target removeal.
Yes I perfer the tie ons theres no way of keeping those heads with the long tang FROM PULLING OUT WHEN PRACTICING. The tie ons are much more practial even on cain arrows.
Those points are hand make one at a time so I know there exspencive. If for looks for hand made heads email me maybe we can work out a deal. I can hand build most within 2 ro 3 gains of each other. Each point takes a lot of time and damascus is not a cheap metal. I'm sure you've already found out.
I sent you some pic's. Don't know if you got them. For some reason I can send to some ,some I can't. I've try ( GEORGE) gstoneburg and can't but have others why who knows.
Tell me if you receved the pic's. I'll try again.
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Hello,
I just put an ad in the magazine that we have a complete line of bamboo arrow-making supplies, including damascus reproductions of Japanese and Chinese arrowheads. I've attached a photo showing some of what we have.
Kay.