Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Hawkswood on July 10, 2011, 02:23:12 am
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Hello mates,
I've been shooting my sissy 50# warbow look alike for about a week now (500 odd arrows) and am enjoying it immensely. I set up a short range in my yard and am shooting constantly. It is a 76" Hickory bow with a draw of 33" at about 45-50lbs that Jim at Rudderbows made for me. This being my first archery experience at 34 years old, I thought it would be better to get an easy and cheaper bow to shoot so I would not have to constantly fight the bow. The only information I've got on shooting form is basically from the internet and youtube. Bigbowbrum and the boys being my favorite videos. Are there more authoritative sources? Are there any good books that deal specifically with shooting in the medieval style. None of this fancy arrow rest and wheels and such please.
I bought one book called "Shooting the Stickbow" which I thought was pretty good, but not the right style of archery as it was mostly meant for modern shooting being anchored from the chin. A few friends who hunt and shoot in the modern style insist that I must have an anchor point, but I'm not sure how this works when I draw back past my ear. I mostly just try to do it the same every time. I can now keep all my arrows on the target, but that's not quite good enough. I will keep practicing and maybe after the first 50,000 arrows these things will sort themselves out. ;D
Thanks,
Dan Kost
PS. I'll try to post some pics if I can get my wife to film me.
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Hey Hawkswood! Sounds like someone is catchin' the warbow bug! HAha. I myself own a Rudderbows 76" tri-lam warbow 110lbs@32" and love it! I'm glad you like your bow as well.
As for form, I got started watching bigbowbrum as well, I studied N. Brimingham's from intensely and my shooting has done just fine. Another archer you should study is Mark Stretton. He shoots similar to N. Birmingham of bigbowbrum, i.e. with is backside sticking out. This technique is what is called "shooting in the bow". You can't go wrong with those guys.
As for books, Robert Hardy and Matthew Stricklands The Great Warbow I've heard is a great resource. Also Arrowstorm by Richard Wadge is another good book on the English warbow. If you can find The Grey Goose Wing at a local library, it has lots of great info on English warbows as well! This is a very small list of all the books on English warbows, but they are some of the finest and they get mentioned on this site a lot.
Hopefully, this was helpful! Welcome to the world of the English warbow, haha :)
Take care!
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I bought one book called "Shooting the Stickbow" which I thought was pretty good, but not the right style of archery as it was mostly meant for modern shooting being anchored from the chin. A few friends who hunt and shoot in the modern style insist that I must have an anchor point, but I'm not sure how this works when I draw back past my ear. I mostly just try to do it the same every time. I can now keep all my arrows on the target, but that's not quite good enough. I will keep practicing and maybe after the first 50,000 arrows these things will sort themselves out. ;D
Thanks,
Dan Kost
PS. I'll try to post some pics if I can get my wife to film me.
The archers mentioned are great role models. Focused practice would be the key. There is a book [With a Bended Bow] to be published by The History Press, I'm not sure just when, that would deal with mediaeval shooting in considerable detail.
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Hawkswood,
I have not yet come across any books etc on the subject of shooting the English Warbow, shooting the English longbow yes but not the warbow. As you are aware members of the English Warbow Society have issued at least 2 instructive videos, oif I remember correctly one on sitting into the shot and the other on the rolling loose
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyEIk_INOaY
Unfortunately for you most of the efforts of the Warbow shooters are directed towards distance shooting not target shooting so they are of limited help.
A few friends who hunt and shoot in the modern style insist that I must have an anchor point,
In many ways they are correct if you intend to hunt or shoot at targets, you need to pull back to a consistent arrow length and ensure that at the time of release the string is held in the same position relative to your eyes. You may achieve these by touching your ear or someplace else with your thumb whilst feeling the correct draw length by touch of the head on your index finger, or by whatever other means you develop to do the same. I gave up trying to touch my ear with my thumb when I began drawing past the ear, what I try and do now to ensure alignment is to make sure that I can feel the fletches brushing the side of my face.
The point is for accurate shooting at targets, be they static or not, you need to develop the equivalent of an anchor, so its a case of practice, practice and more practice trying to end up with the string, arrow and bow in the same place each time.
Best of luck.
Erik,
Regarding the book you mention, do you have an Author's name?
Is "The History Press" an American publisher? I don't seem to be able to locate them on the internet.
Craig.
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Craig--The History Press is described on the internet as "the UK's largestand specialist history publisher" aith main office in Gloucestershire.
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Erik,
The book you mention does not appear on their lists, not even the coming soon list.
Any idea who the Author is?
Craig.
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I looked it up on google and found this:
http://www.amazon.com/Bended-Bow-Archery-Medieval-Renaissance/dp/0752463551
in there it says the author is Erik Roth, and is to be published March 2012
--Mark R.
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I looked it up on google and found this:
http://www.amazon.com/Bended-Bow-Archery-Medieval-Renaissance/dp/0752463551
in there it says the author is Erik Roth, and is to be published March 2012
--Mark R.
Ah light dawns! Its Erik's own work, no wonder he knew the future!
With Mark's help found it on both Amazon US and Amazon UK but not on the History Press, Amazon UK says price is UKP 20.00, US has no price yet. Neither Amazon's say much about it, so how about a quick precis Erik?
Craig.
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Everybody seems to be missing the point of what a warbow is for, namely stopping a man wearing armour by killing him, wounding him or scaring the crap out of him. You're only going to do any damage by using the full power of the bow which means drawing to the full length of the arrow(which should match the draw length of the bow) every time. That's it, just draw to the full length of the arrow. You have to do that to propel the arrow as far as possible because you want to stop him as far away as possible. You draw the full length of the arrow at short range because you want the arrow to punch through his armour which is a lot less likely to happen if you don't draw to the full length of the arrow. The only way to become good at this is to practise as much as possible (like any thing else really).
Now you might say that we're not shooting at men in armour any more so why do we need to draw like that all the time. Well if that's the case why shoot a warbow at all. The whole point is to shoot the bow the old way like it was meant to. Full length of the arrow everytime - no anchor points.
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I like your choice of word 'authoritative'
The answer is no, the only people who realy knew are long since dead.
Of course there are those who are shooting heavy bows now and they've had to re-learn the skills, fortunately they post on youtube and the like.
The only real answer is to do it yourself, like most of this stuff.
The rest is opinion or 'received wisdom' or personal experience/proference.
Roger Ascham is probably the nearest thing to an authority and even he notes that men have many and varied styles.
Personally I recomend grimacing, but not leaping forward like a startled cat. ;)
Del
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Full length of the arrow everytime - no anchor points.
I understand the full length, but does that really mean no anchor point? Can the anchor point not be ear lobe or a certain point on the neck so you get full length draw? Just drawing back and loosing may not provide accuracy you desire. If you draw 2cm higher or lower you may miss the man by 50 meters and likely not scare him, much less kill him. Just thinking out loud.....
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Going back to the military aspect of warbows Justin. You have to shoot the arrows issued to you and as I said you need the full draw to elicit the full power of the bow. It's quite common for archers used to a particular anchor point to think that this style is not particulary accurate but if that's the only way you shoot and you practice enough it's no less accurate than any other way (speaking for myself). In fact the power of the bow makes for a very flat shot.
In it's own peculiar way the arrow becomes the anchor point as your drawing hand will end up in the same spot every time. The difficulty arises when because of physique or compression (often overlooked) makes it incredibly difficult to draw a really powerful bow full length. The option then is to have a shorter arrow. I don't know for sure if that was done but it may explain why the Mary Rose arrows are of different lengths. One of our group is around five seven and finds it hard to draw 32" with bows 120lb+ so his own arrows are 30 1/2" (EWBS minimum). He' not getting the full power from the bow but there isn't any wood of the arrow being wasted either and if you're shooting a bow of say 170lbs then losing 10 or 15 lbs by only drawing to 30" isn't going to make a huge difference in the overall scheme of things.
For a good contrast in shooting styles have a look at this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWGNCGlioa8
The bows are 130lbs Stratton Italian Yew, 122 lbs Stratton Hickory, Greenheart, Lemonwood laminate , 90lb Maisel Osage.
The arrows were EWBS Standards weighing between 52g and 60g.
For the record the Lam made 230 yards , Yew 220 yards and the Osage 152 yards.
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Interesting video.... why all the jumping about
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Interesting video.... why all the jumping about
Because they are daft and think adding 4mph to their left hand is going to make any significance to the distance they shoot.
Do they really think archers in a medieval war would waste time and energy leaping about like ballerinas and risk losing their footing in the mud?
Del
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Says someone who has never made/shot a heavy bow, it would be nice if the people who have no experience of something would keep their opinions to themselves.
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Says someone who has never made/shot a heavy bow, it would be nice if the people who have no experience of something would keep their opinions to themselves.
I know we have corresponded on this subject before Ian but as a keen warbow enthusiast I believe you must have read Ascham on the subject, he also found it rather amusing.
"Another I saw which, at every shot, after the loose, lifted up his right leg so far that he was ever in jeopardy of falling. Some stamp forward some leap backward. All these faults be either in the drawing, or at the loose; with many other mo, which you may easily perceive, and so go about to avoid them"
Craig.
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Says someone who has never made/shot a heavy bow, it would be nice if the people who have no experience of something would keep their opinions to themselves.
To whom are you adressing this?
Del
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Having said warbow, how much weight is given?..
I shoot 110 very simple .. no tension at a target from 50 yards ..
I am not a supporter of a long shot, but I hope I can say fairly even with conditioning shooting 130-140..
I am heavy men - 190cm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nf6iSpHlkY
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Having said warbow, how much weight is given?..
I shoot 110 very simple .. no tension at a target from 50 yards ..
I am not a supporter of a long shot, but I hope I can say fairly even with conditioning shooting 130-140..
I am heavy men - 190cm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nf6iSpHlkY
You make it look easy :-) very smooth, No Ballerina stuff.
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Haha here we go. The dancing, hopping, getting jiggy with it, whatever you want to call it is just a natural reaction to the effort that's been put in to attain the maximum distance look closer at the other video and you'll the bloke is nowhere near full draw. When I shoot for accuracy I remain static too. What I would like to see is all of the people on this forum posting videos of themselves shooting heavy bows at full draw. All the ballerina stuff might be crap according to Mr A but what the hell I'm enjoying myself.
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Have a look at this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghqV0fPfXL4
Full draw static loose, bows from 100 - 135lbs. I'll be posting some video of this at some point.
And here's the challenge. If anyone from this forum ever comes to New Zealand I will happily compete against them shooting bows from 40lb to 130lb at a target at a distance of their choice.
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To you Del, you name someone who is good with a heavy bow and they will be doing this silly following the bow thing.
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Craig, very interesting what you posted about Ascham. If you look at the video you will see that I match the first archer in Ascham's description (except that I'm in no danger of over balancing) Presumably he's talking about civilian archers who are, given Henry Vlll statute shooting at a mark no less than 220 yards. So in effect I, as a civilian in the early 21st century is shooting the same way as a civilian in the mid 16th century (however badly Ascham thinks it is). Cool. Pity there's no description of English military archers technique from the Hundred Years War.
BTW are you in Australia?
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To you Del, you name someone who is good with a heavy bow and they will be doing this silly following the bow thing.
Ok I can only pull 90 these days, but I'm not daft.
I'm not going to try to argue on something subjective.
Anyhow, when you get your time machine running again I'd love togo back to Agincourt and see if they hop about...
Just had a thought.
Do these guys leap and hop when shooting at 30yards?
If they don't then it shows that hopping and leaping isn't a natural consequence of the shooting of the bow.
Del
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I'll get back to you on the time machine, don't hold your breath. The technique is for distance, and it does help it is difficult to explain. If we ever meet then I will gladly show you.
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I want to learn how to shoot "in the bow" but as a 51 year old woman, its not easy to convice people that you actually WANT to shoot heavier bows, my current bow is a 55lb 68in Yew longbow and I love it but I really want to challenge myself.
Can anyone advise me on the best technique to use for accuracy? I usually shoot 3D targets at various distances.
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You don't have to convince anyone of anything. If you want to challenge yourself go for it. There are ladies that I know of in England and Australia who are shooting around 80lbs. I shoot in the bow all the time whether it's a 40lb Kassai horse bow or a 130lb longbow. As Ian mentioned the disco dancing on the loose really does add distance. I've shot for distance with both static and dynamic looses and I've always shot further doing the Blitzkreig Bop. It's not supposed to happen but it does. However it's about as accurate as an economist when it comes to hitting the mark. So for accurate shooting just carry on with how you're shooting now. The only difference will be the drawing of the arrow further back than what you're used to. I took part in a field shoot at Massey Archery Club in Auckland a few years ago. I used a 100lb bow shooting at a mixture of 2d and 3d targets. I still drew the full 31 3/4" of the arrows and finished in the top 5 of the open longbow section. My best shot was a dead centre heart lung shot at 25m.
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I do intend to go for it!
I get asked a lot why I want to shoot heavier bows, this is usually from guys shooting lighter than me and usually half my age! ;)
I have been looking at various videos of people drawing warbows and it does seem to have a lot to do with the elbow going a bit higher then down into normal position, this I assume opens the chest up more.
Can anyone confirm that that's what I should be trying to do?
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What your normally see is that people that are the same size and have same length arms shoot the same and also if you are naturally strong or not. Best thing to do is get a bow that will draw far enough depending on your reach normally 32". Then practice, but as you say the arm high then going down is the common way to do it.
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Thanks Ian, I will give it a try tomorrow and will let you know how I got on!
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..... it would be nice if the people who have no experience of something would keep their opinions to themselves.
...where's the fun in that ....
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Craig, very interesting what you posted about Ascham. If you look at the video you will see that I match the first archer in Ascham's description (except that I'm in no danger of over balancing) Presumably he's talking about civilian archers who are, given Henry Vlll statute shooting at a mark no less than 220 yards. So in effect I, as a civilian in the early 21st century is shooting the same way as a civilian in the mid 16th century (however badly Ascham thinks it is). Cool. Pity there's no description of English military archers technique from the Hundred Years War.
BTW are you in Australia?
Peasant,
Sorry not to have responded before but I work away from home for part of the week and do not have access to the internet when away, (or rather am too tight fisted to pay the price motels want for the service).
Yes I live in OZ, in the parish of Binjura, about 10km outside the little town of Cooma in NSW, a town that's approximately an hours drive from the snow, the sea and the Capital. ;D
Which of the three archers are you?
Now with regard to your statement "Presumably he's talking about civilian archers who are, given Henry Vlll statute shooting at a mark no less than 220 yards." you are falling into the trap fallen into by most who quote it (or should I say misquote it, probably because so many others have done so), in that it does not in fact make it illegal for an under 24 year old to shoot at closer marks, only that he may not shoot at marks that are 220 yards or closer when using flight or prick arrows (so he must use heavier arrows to do this). Indeed if one considers the Raison d'être for the various statute, hat is to train archers war, what would be the point of only training to shoot at distance when they would be required to shoot at all ranges from the maximum capable by the bow down to targets almost on the point of the arrow before release.
The only full(ish) version of the statute I have managed to find is in modern English so there may be some errors but according to it the statute of 1542 says:
"No-one under 24 shall shoot at any standing prick, except it be at a rover, more than once, when he shall change his mark, under penalty of four pence; that no-one under 24 shall shoot at any mark of eleven score or under with any prickshaft or flight (arrow) under penalty of six schillings and eight pence; that no-one under seventeen shall use a yew bow under penalty of six shillings and eight pence unless his father or his mother shall be possessed of ae10 in land, or he himself 40 Marks; and that the inhabitants of every city, town or place put and keep up butts and shoot at them or elsewhere on holy days and at other times convenient."
As Ian mentioned the disco dancing on the loose really does add distance. I've shot for distance with both static and dynamic looses and I've always shot further doing the Blitzkreig Bop
Ian and I have corresponded about this before (at least I think its the same Ian here as on the other forum??) and yes those that practice it do seem to get greater distances using it, however I have yet to hear an explanation of the process that would logically result in the additional distances, it cannot be the leap nor can it be the other explanations I have been given, but whatever it is it works for them. and from what you say it does for you.
Craig.
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It was me Craig, I think it was this forum or paleo. As you said before a high speed camera needs to be used, I will add it is more comfortable to follow the bow a little.
I has to be taken into account though that every second you hold the bow at full draw you are loosing distance, so you cant spend to long dancing around.
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I has to be taken into account though that every second you hold the bow at full draw you are loosing distance, so you cant spend to long dancing around.
Which reminds me of something that has been niggling the back of my mind. I seem to remember a few years ago those who practiced the rolling release spoke of the process of constantly drawing the bow so that they only came to full draw just before the release, which to me sounds reasonable as the bow is only held at full draw for a fraction of a second. But watching the current top shooters and this instructional video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyEIk_INOaY
The current idea seems to be to reach full draw and lock it in while the bow is horizontal or lower, then rotate upwards to the release.
So it seems to me that the technique has altered.
Craig.
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Are you in touch with any of the Warbows Australia people Craig? They seem to be mostly in Victoria and I think there is a Queensland contingent too. In regards to the 220 yards business. I looked online and also through the various warbow books that I've got and read several versions of the statute. The telling bit for me (if it actually exists) it that the 220 yards was put in place to "encourage strong shooting" which suggests that to reach that distance a powerful bow had to be used. I don't want to get into any more discussions about historical archery though because they invariably go around in circles with no one being to prove anything conclusively because there just isn't the evidence available to us at the moment. I will however be posting more videos and photos because there are so few people who have the bollocks to post them themselves. The only way to learn this stuff is to see how other people are doing it (rightly or wrongly) I'm not too worried if someone thinks I'm crap, I'd just like to see someone say "this is how you do it right" and post some video of themselves doing the business.
I'm the chap in the red hat.
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I has to be taken into account though that every second you hold the bow at full draw you are loosing distance, so you cant spend to long dancing around.
Which reminds me of something that has been niggling the back of my mind. I seem to remember a few years ago those who practiced the rolling release spoke of the process of constantly drawing the bow so that they only came to full draw just before the release, which to me sounds reasonable as the bow is only held at full draw for a fraction of a second. But watching the current top shooters and this instructional video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyEIk_INOaY
The current idea seems to be to reach full draw and lock it in while the bow is horizontal or lower, then rotate upwards to the release.
So it seems to me that the technique has altered.
Craig.
I don't really think it has altered, its minor improvements that happens over a few years. The archer their matched the current Livery record of 272 yards at our last shoot in bad weather. The pictures are somewhere.
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The whole "rolling loose" thing doesn't make sence to me. Why would you want to come to full draw with the arrow pointing to the ground. From an efficient biomechanical perspective it's a pretty poor technique?
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Its doesn't seem to make sense but you cant argue with the results.
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Are you in touch with any of the Warbows Australia people Craig? They seem to be mostly in Victoria and I think there is a Queensland contingent too.
No, I am not, as you say they are in Victoria, even have a Warbow society, attached to one of the major reenactment clubs I believe, probably based close into Melbourne, quite a drive for me, something of the order of 8 hours dependent on traffic through Gippsland etc.
Craig.
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The rolling loose does look weird and growing up reading books on the 100YW I wondered why the archer illustrations sometimes looked so strange until I saw some of the modern English blokes doing rolling looses. Have a look at the bloke on the left.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k95/peasant1381/Battle-poitiers1356.jpg)
Doesn't mean that the bloke is rolling up neccessarily but some people draw up a relly heavy bow from that position
I use a conventional loose when accuracy is required however. Here I am shooting at a mark 180 yards away.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k95/peasant1381/SS850444-1.jpg)
and after the loose
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k95/peasant1381/SS850445-1.jpg)
Craig. Leongatha is where the medieval group is based and some of them are members of Warbows Australia. Do you have anyone who shoots near you? If you ever come over to NZ you're welcome to come along and have have a shoot with us.
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Craig. Leongatha is where the medieval group is based and some of them are members of Warbows Australia
Yes I know, which is effectively Melbourne or beyond (depending on which way I travel), so as I said approximately 8 hours by car.
As for someone near me, I understand one of the clubs in Canberra claims to support medieval style shooting, but Canberra is over 110 - 120 km away and as I have only just restarted (part time) working after being made redundant still have to think of the cost of travel.
As for visiting NZ, maybe some time in the future, but thanks for the offer.
Craig.