Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: BowJunkie on June 01, 2011, 11:22:13 am
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I recently posted an add on craigslist "localy" for bow woods, and as luck would have it; I have the opportunity to get more Osage bow staves than I can shake a draw knife at.
I have never worked with Osage, so my question is, what preparations should I take when I cut down these trees and start splitting out staves?
Thank you for your time and comments.
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Like any other tree you want to be sure the bark doesn't spiral around the tree. I prefer trees about 8" to 10" in diameter for practical workability purposes. Cut your logs and at least split them in half and seal the ends. After a month or so, if you have the desire to, split down to stave size, strip the bark and sapwood off and seal the back. I would at least split down to stave size and treat the bark for insects. Any piece over about 36" can be used for billets.
The bark will peel off very easily this time of year. ;)
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Thank you for the reply Pat. My next question is, what would you use to treat for insect?
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If I were you, I would try not to get the big eye like I always seem to do and just cut a small amount to start with. Work on just 1 tree and only take a couple logs cause you could always return and get more, especially if you get in good with the land owner.
If you cut too much all at once it will overwhelm you with too much all at once, cutting and splitting, then debarking/removing sapwood is quite a chore.
That way you can finish the job within a resonable amount of time, cause the longer you leave the bark on that osage the higher the risk of having a worm start eating your precious heartwood. Spraying for insects won't kill the eggs that have been laid inside the bark.
Also you can't just debark them and not remove the sapwood it's all or none with osage or the sapwood will split right down into the heartwood even if you have them sealed properly.
Get em cut, get em split, and get em down to the first ring and sealed as quick as you can. You'll thank yourself for it later. Then just sit back and let em season, you'll build some nice bows out of that this winter so get out there and get er done! ;D
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I've heard of folks using Malathion. Check the lables to see what would be appropriate.
I have also heard of folks saturating the bark with deisel fuel or kerosene. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of this will chime in. ;D I have cut very little osage.
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Great input guys, and thank you for the info.
I guess i have my work cut out for me, This person has 7 osage trees and they range from 4'' to 12'' in diameter and they are really really tall.
I do however have another question.
Osage usually has long runner limbs, the ones that are too small to make a bow with,,,, could you use them to make arrow shafts?
I have never heard of anyone making arrows from Osage, that is why I ask.
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My experience has been if you cut late, this is late, it's really hard to keep the bugs out unless you debark. If you cut early (obviously depending upon your climate) say before daytime temps average above say 50 and then have a 8 or 10 weeks to get the wood (once staved out) partially dried before the bug hatch becomes active you'll avoid a lot of trouble. Once infested, and the wood comes to you with larvae already in the bark, its tough to control them when the temps get right for them to be active. I've tried all manner of sprays, even tents and foggers. Seems like they only like wood with some sap in it, rarely range deep into the sapwood unless it's real wet still too. Get the wood dry enough, with time or by removing the sapwood, they got nothin to eat and will not linger.
I'd agree with others, maybe fetch a small tree now and get it staved out and debarked for something to work on, then plan to go back for more earlier next year, or later this when temps get right.
Osage shoot arrows have been done, run on the very heavy side cuz it's real dense wood. And although those suckers look straight and nice, better candidates are likely nearby, eg sourwood, viburnam etc.
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Any suckers over 1" in diameter will make a bow. Any of about 2" or so will make a very good bow!
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I believe I spray my osage bark with Spectracide Triazicide and so far have not had a borer in something I treated. I can find out for sure tonight (assuming I can remember that long). The only thing I would add is that green osage is unbelievably heavy. I bring my splitting wedges and maul with me when I go cutting so I can split larger logs small enough to lift them into the trailer. Finding a couple interested young men in their teens can be very helpful (and normally helps keep them out of trouble).
Good luck.
George
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I have cut osage in August and then again in October and really couldn't tell much difference in the amount of sap that ran out of the wood, but then the sap probably hadn't gone down yet in October?
The worms that I found in August cutting and October cuttings were on logs that I purposely left whole and were alive and well inside the log burrowing away into the heartwood some 6 months later. I don't think it matters to a worm whether the wood is alive or dead, they just keep chewing and burrowing until they are ready to emerge and hatch into whatever kind of insect they turn into.
Your only real safe option is to cut/drop, split the staves, debark and remove the sapwood in a reasonable amount of time, like within a week or less and get those staves sealed.
Like DCM4 said, this time of year the eggs will be hatching soon and the damage begins almost immediately once they do and it's off to the races to eat some juicy heartwood.
My suggestion is still get a few logs and finish them all the way through to being put up with bark and sapwood removed and good heavy coat of sealer on them.
Then go back and get more later, maybe when it gets colder this fall or winter.
I like the idea of getting some young guys to assist you also, wish I had help with my osage cutting cause it sure would make life alot easier. You will be sore for days afterwards unless your a professional body builder or a triathalon competitor, so you may want to schedule a few days vacation before or after a weekend when you get ready to harvest. Plan ahead with a good sharp chain saw and extra chain, several wedges, pry bar (you will need that!), and a heavy sledge hammer. The pry bar and wedges will be your most valuable tools next to the chainsaw when you get the bar or chain pinched, and it will get pinched trust me on that. Hedge limbs never come off straight when they fall, they always twist one direction or the other and will pinch your saw so tight you have to drive a wedge in there to free the bar. Or carry a spair chainsaw to free the one that's hung up?
You'll see what I'm talking about soon. ;)
Good Luck.
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As Pat mentioned earlier, check the bark for any signs of twist before cutting. You want a nice straight section without any limbs if possible. I like to look for trees growing near water sources or at least in lower areas where water drains to. In my area, they seem to have thicker rings. I try to look for younger looking trees that are a decent diamter. Second growth from stumps that were cut years ago are my favorite. They are usually straight with thick rings. Carry a bottle of wood glue with you when you cut them. As soon as you cut a section out of the tree, cover the ends with plenty of glue. It won't hurt to put a second coat on once you get them back to the house. I like to remove the bark and sapwood and then seal them as soon as I can. I lost a bunch of osage because I didn't do that and the sapwood released from the heartwood and it checked (cracked) all over the back of it. The sapwood is white so when you start removing the bark, keep going until you hit yellow. Seal the backs as soon as you get the sapwood off. Shellac and wood glue are good for sealing it. Also, if your staves start reflexing too much, you can strap them down to a board or something else to keep them straight. I have osage staves strapped to my upright posts in my pole barn/garage. Good luck and be carefull. Ask questions and post pictures if you need help along the way.
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Whoa, if you go the route suggested by OO (removing sapwood immediately) you are are talking about a significant amount of work. Don't cut too much wood if that's your plan. I have never gone that route personally, but making bows would be much faster if I did :) (though processing staves would be much slower.. :( ). You do have to do the work at some point ... I just choose to procrastinate. ;D
George
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Watching a 10" log worth of osage staves burning because they were ruined changed my way of thinking on leaving the bark and sapwood on. :'(
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WOW :o It is great to talk to people who have "been there done that"
I will keep all of this in mind, The upside is I do have all of the tools needed
Thanks for the input guys.
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Also. If I do need to remove a lot of sap wood and bark, I could always split out the staves,
then use the band saw to cut till I hit yellow, and then chase a ring with the draw knife,
then reseal the backs and ends once each stave is roughed out.???????????
Does this sound O.K. to you guys????
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I hear you OO, but I've processed a LOT of osage and never lost one that way (knocking furiously on wood). It wouldn't bother me that much if I did. It's just wood. Borers have really infested the untreated wood I first cut down here. Still, I've never not made a bow from even those staves. I have bows with full borer holes in them and they work just fine. Osage is TOUGH, don't think I'd try that with any other wood. If I were trying to sell the bows or the staves it'd be different. I've brought wood home that was too crooked for sure. My philosophy has always been to bring home everything I think might make a bow. Doesn't bother me at all to cut it into fireplace lengths if it doesn't. Like I said, it's just wood.
The crown on the wood makes removing sapwood with a band saw almost impossible BowJ. Green osage is easier to work with a draw knife but wants to tear out at knots. Always stop a ring above the one you want to be the bow's back and seal. I personally stop as soon as I get into a solid sapwood ring and seal. I've gotten some checking even after sealing and you'll have more time to catch it and reseal it you have some wood between you and the heartwood. It also lets you use the top heartwood ring. JMO
George
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Thanks for the information George, I will save the band saw for cutting the profiles.
Priceless information you have given about stopping a ring prior to the ring that will be the back and sealing to cure.
Also I am in North Texas, I was wondering, after I prep the staves, How long should I let Osage cure before I try to make a bow?
The only way I can think to check is to weigh it, I do not have a means to measure the moisture content.
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I have only had it happen to me that one time, but that was enough. I cut most of my osage in creek bottoms and I don't have any equipment to haul them out with so I end up carrying them out. Luckily, I'm built for it, 5'6" and 230 lbs. I cut that log in summer and it was all I could do to get it up to a road. So when I cut a tree now, sitting in the garage in front of a big fan while drawknifing staves isn't that bad. Plus it saves a little on storage space and is cleaner. I mark the center line and use the bandsaw to take them down to 2"x2"x70". It's also nice when I am ready to build a bow. If I have a certain type of bow in mind, it's easier to pick through finished staves to find the right piece. But hey, to each his own. What works for me might not work for anybody else. Hey Gstoneberg, with the bows that you make out of those crooked, twisted staves, I'd say keep doing what you are doing. It seems to work for you :)
Hey Bowjunkie, I tried using the bandsaw to take off the bark and sapwood on the last tree that I cut. It worked, but when you go to chase a ring, you might have to go down a few extra rings if you get a little deep with the saw. I might try it again on straight, flat backed staves.
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All my first yeller wood staves came with the bark and sapwood still on them. I wonder what those guys did to their wood becuase I never saw a borer hole in any of them. Maybe I wasted my luck on those staves, maybe I shoulda been buying lottery tickets! :-\
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All my first yeller wood staves came with the bark and sapwood still on them. I wonder what those guys did to their wood becuase I never saw a borer hole in any of them. Maybe I wasted my luck on those staves, maybe I shoulda been buying lottery tickets! :-\
LMAO ;D
Katt
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I don't have near the experience of you guys with Osage.I have however learned to use a good machete by working a lot of hickory down with one.
When removing the sap wood on Osage I like to use the machete first.I start about 10" from one end and work my way up the stave.With a little practice every whack will take off a 10" chip nearly all the way to the heart wood.It only takes a few minutes to machete a stave.Then I can use the draw knife a lot easier and faster to finish cleaning all the sap wood off.
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I no longer hord staves like I use to. Now when
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I no longer hord staves like I use to. Now when ever I find one I tuck it away and let it grow untill I need it. With osage I'll useally take all bark and sap wood off. CUT IT DOWN to simi bow form seal the bow and add some deflex with saw horses and cinder blocks. as long as you leave it a little heavy osage won't warp. With osage I'll leave it for at least 2 years.
I use to just cut seal the ends and spray with lowes pestisides I 've used all kinds. Respray every month or so a couple times. Never had a problem. Now I'll do my hickory and other white woods the same way but leave the bark on. Again spray it down every couple or few months or vwhen ever I'm over at the barn. Never had a problem. I put reflex in all my staves with blocks or rachet strape it from the floor on (SIMI) bow forms I've left heavy. When a couple cinder blocks won't do it This also helps with swisting on all woods.
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Yea OO, I wasn't saying what you're doing isn't the right way, it surely works and works well too I would think. I'm just a procrastinator so I put off what I can. Around here the land is flat and usually dry enough to get right to the tree with a pickup or trailer. Sadly, we have borers terrible. Up north I never treated the bark, never removed it, and never saw a borer. Life was easier ... Anyway, each of us that's been doing it awhile have a method that works. None of them are wrong. Some are better than the way I do it for sure. It's good to hear the different approaches. Gives us ideas on how to streamline the process. Good dialogue.
I've gotten so I run my draw knife back against the rings and remove as much of the sapwood as I can in one pass. It works better with seasoned wood than green, the wet wood likes to tear and doesn't split along the rings as well.
Where are you in north Texas BowJunkie? How far from Dallas? Maybe we can meet up. Not surprised that you have wood access, it's a thorny weed down here (like half of the rest of the vegetation). The longer you let a stave season, the better it works. You can work a green stave down to near bow dimensions, seal the back and let it season that way. But, if you're close enough to Dallas, just drive over and you can have any stave in my stack you want. A word of warning, my staves are known to be a touch crooked. ;)
George
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George has a thing for staves that would work as fenceposts...the type you can screw into the ground!
>:D
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Also. If I do need to remove a lot of sap wood and bark, I could always split out the staves,
then use the band saw to cut till I hit yellow, and then chase a ring with the draw knife,
then reseal the backs and ends once each stave is roughed out.???????????
Does this sound O.K. to you guys????
Yes you could if you have a band saw that's big enough. My dinky little 10" Craftsman won't hardly make it through a chunk of 2x4 much less a raw osage stave. LOL
Believe it or not, when it's green the sapwood comes off fairly easy. It's still alot of work, but much easier to get it off while still green and fresh than to wait till the sapwood dried hard like armor and have to chisel it off with a wood chisel. :o
"I have osage staves strapped to my upright posts in my pole barn/garage. "
Now why didn't I ever think of that?? ???
Nice tip Osage Outlaw! ;)
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George I actually live just Northeast of downtown Fort Worth. Maybe we can schedule a meet date sometime.
I purchased a Riobi band saw from home depot a few months back and profiled out a couple of staves.
Seems to work just fine on hickory, mulberry and hackberry.
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George I actually live just Northeast of downtown Fort Worth. Maybe we can schedule a meet date sometime.
I purchased a Riobi band saw from home depot a few months back and profiled out a couple of staves.
Seems to work just fine on hickory, mulberry and hackberry.
Great, I already have 1 guy from FW that drives over every other week or so and works on a bow in my shop. Are you busy next weekend? I'm hosting a get together out at my deer lease to meet some PA folk, make/shoot bows, flint knapp (man do I need help there) and perhaps chase some hogs. There may only be 3 or 4 of us, but it'll be fun. Here's the thread: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,25825.0.html You're sure welcome to come.
George
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George, if I didn't live so far away I'd be all over that with tent and bow in hand! Sounds like a blast even if it is 100 freaking degrees outside. :D 8)
Yall gonna have a rattle snake roundup or copper head roundup? That's what would really trip my trigger next to stickin a pork chop.
I heard that hogs aren't any good to eat in the summer down there, any truth to that? My lil bro said they get some kinda parasite in their blood or somethin.???
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You'd be welcome for sure. Looks like we're gonna be in the mid to high 90s for the next week. The lease is up on the plateau and normally 4-5 degrees warmer than Dallas. O boy. We should have rattlers galore, but I've only seen a few out there. Haven't seen a copperhead there, but did further east. Also saw cottonmouths east of here. If we see any rattlers we'll surely be trying to relieve them of their skin, and invite them to dinner. ;) Last year I hunted every month of the year and ate everything I shot. It is painful to take care of the meat in the heat, but if you get them on ice quick they taste fine. I've not heard of that parasite.
George
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Semo, if ya head on down swing through MI "on your way" ::)
Texas, dang that would be a healthy road trip! You guys have fun George and be sure to snap a few pics of the gathering if you can...
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Yeah Lee, it's about a 12 hour drive from Missouri and I don't know how far George is from my lil bro's house? One heck of a haul that's for sure!
That parasite that he's talking about with wild pigs may just be hearsay from some guys that are just repeating what they heard? You know how stuff like that gets started.
He said that his neighbors catch the small ones in cage traps then feed em out for a whole hog barbeque, he actually got invited to one last summer and he said it was the best barbeque he's ever ate. He said that if he hadn't been told it was wild pig he never would have known. Course you know a possum arse might be mighty tasty too with the right amount of beer before hand. ;D
Please do take lots of pics, I love me some pics!!
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Pigs are pigs, wild or tame I can't tell a difference in the taste. Wild hogs are leaner so the sausage I make cooks down much less and is healthier than what you buy in the store. The best pork I've ever had was about a 40lb little one I rotisseried whole with a good rub on it. Man O man, that was good eating. Last time I was hunting I took the bow and tried for another one just like that one. Those little ones are a small target that seldom are stationary and I missed. Should've got him, I was bummed. Depending on how many show up next weekend I may try for another one with the bow.
I'll take the camera for sure.
George
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Now I'm hungry. ::)
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One more post and then we can get back to osage prep. Thinking about it makes me hungry too. I'm gunning for one of the little ones tomorrow. Here's how he looked on the grill.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3641/5797812146_38239d2d2c_z.jpg)
Yummmmmm.
George
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SSS ...Single Serving Swine!