Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: SimonUK on May 25, 2007, 06:23:42 pm
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I remember a discussion on the old forum about the meaning of the word 'piked' in Toxophilus by Roger Ascham. Some people thought it meant to shorten the bow.
The often quoted sentence is: 'which shall cut him shorter, and pike him'.
I found another sentence which to me makes it clear to me that 'to pike' is 'to narrow':
Frets be first little pinches, the which when you perceive, pike the places about the pinches, to make them somewhat weaker, and as well coming as where it pinched, and so the pinches shall die, and never increase further into great frets.
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Simon,
Good eye. I'm more convinced than ever. I was actually thinking today about this discussion we had on the other forum. Thanks for bringing it back around. I hope more people will weigh in. I've never heard Jaro's thoughts on this one either.
J. D. Duff
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What Ascham mean by pyking and shortening seems to be quite straightforward. But then he talks of 'whipping' as well. This is not a reference to either of the above as it's mentioned as a separate action and right after the other two in the text. Is this a reference to recurving the tips? As Jaro states in another thread, it seemed a common practice to have a bow 'dressed' after it was shot-in. If the bow tips were recurved when purchased any later shortening would reduce the effect. It could also be done to a straight limbed bow to counter string-follow.
There is plenty of evidence of this practice.
J
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Whipping in this case means thinning the tips To increase the fiexiabiility and to reduce stress on the handgrip area. Mary Rose bows were thinned in the last foot or so. This thinning was thought to increase cast
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Here is my interpretation of Piking, Dressing and Whipping.
Piking: To shorten a bow to the desired length. When i make a self yew bow i always make it over long and tiller it with the extra length, it is then shot in which afterwards draw weight is reduced naturally as the wood settles, i then reduce the length (Pike) to bring the bow weight back up to what i wanted in the 1st place.
Dressing: Like us when we get dressed we are adding clothing or garments, i see this as adding the horn nocks, also dressing could mean tidying up the bow, sanding and polishing to make it look nice.
Whipping: I always add the raw horn to the bow and carve the nocks while on the bow, what happens is the when i feather the bow tips to get an even and smooth transition between the bow and the horn i have to remove wood from about 6" up the limb to the horn, thus slimming the ends, i always keep the bow tips quite stiff initially and after this process is done the tips bend ever so slightly more than in the 1st place without losing draw weight.
Steve
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The quote from from Ascham is
Take your bow in to the feeld, mote in hym, finke hym
wyth deade heauye fhaftes, looke where he commethe
mooft,prouyde for that place betymes,lefte it pincrieand
fo freate; when you hauethus fhot in him,andperceyued
good fhootynge woode in hym, you muft haue hym
agayne to a good cunnynge, and truftie woorkeman,
whyche fhall cut hym morter, and pike hym and dreffe
hym fytte
There seems to be three separate operations mentioned here:
Cut it shorter
pike
and dress
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Just to let you know I still exist... just very busy. Hi everyone.
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gentlemen! - the english/german on line dictionaries all say a verb 'to pike' doesn't exist, but along the many meanings of pike as a noun you'll find the word 'Spitze', which is something that tapers or narrows towards it's tip, like the churchtower (Turmspitze), the spear (Speerspitze), or the arrowhead (Pfeilspitze).
none of the translations resembles 'kürzen', which is shortening!
frank
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Alanesq~
What's the translation of that passage in red? It looks cool.
~~Matt
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Whipping in this case means thinning the tips To increase the fiexiabiility and to reduce stress on the handgrip area. Mary Rose bows were thinned in the last foot or so. This thinning was thought to increase cast
The act of cutting shorter is not expressed as a verb but rather a sentence (saying just about that) and mentioned before piking. Pikes, as in the staff weapon, were tapered at the tips and for my money piking was the process of thinning the tips not whipping. I think whipping could well mean something else. It is important to keep an open mind and no state things that are clearly not definitive as such. We may well never fully know what whipping described but can only state our case based on experience and evidence.
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What's the translation of that passage in red? It looks cool.
I believe this is the way the book was originally written
the printed versions I have has been translated into more modern English but I have found that its best to refer to the original as some times the translated version can be misleading
btw - you can download it from http://www.archive.org/download/RogerAschamToxophilus1545/RogerAschamToxophilus1545.pdf
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Whipping in this case means thinning the tips To increase the fiexiabiility and to reduce stress on the handgrip area. Mary Rose bows were thinned in the last foot or so. This thinning was thought to increase cast
The act of cutting shorter is not expressed as a verb but rather a sentence (saying just about that) and mentioned before piking. Pikes, as in the staff weapon, were tapered at the tips and for my money piking was the process of thinning the tips not whipping. I think whipping could well mean something else. It is important to keep an open mind and no state things that are clearly not definitive as such. We may well never fully know what whipping described but can only state our case based on experience and evidence.
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I totally agree that piking would mean tapering at the tips. Ascham recommends "whipping at the endes but with discretion, lest he whippe in sunder, or els freete.". To me, that means thinning the tips, that being thinner are less prone to compression damage, close to the point of brerakage. It seems clear to me. As always, I am willing to be convinced by a more likely explanation.
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i read and understood the word whipping as gentle recurving the tips.
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i read and understood the word whipping as gentle recurving the tips.
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None of the Mary Rose bows has recurved ends, gentle or otherwise. Why would a recurve be in danger of "whipping in sunder"? Also , why would Ascham suggest that recurving was normal practice when none of the many MR bows, most probably made in his lifetime, show any sign of recurve ? Maybe you are thinking of that 'Weapons that made Britain" expert ?
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i read and understood the word whipping as gentle recurving the tips.
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None of the Mary Rose bows has recurved ends, gentle or otherwise. Why would a recurve be in danger of "whipping in sunder"? Also , why would Ascham suggest that recurving was normal practice when none of the many MR bows, most probably made in his lifetime, show any sign of recurve ? Maybe you are thinking of that 'Weapons that made Britain" expert ?
Take your bow into the field, shoot in him, sink him with dead heavy shafts, look where he cometh most, provide for that place betimes, lest it pinch, and so fret : when you have thus shot in him, and perceived good shooting wood in him, you must have him again to a good, cunning, and trusty workman, which shall cut him shorter, and pike him and dress him fitter, make him come round compass everywhere, and whipping at the ends, but with discretion, lest he whip in sunder, or else fret, sooner than he is ware of: he must also lay him straight, if he be cast, or otherwise need require; and if he be flat made, gather him round, and so shall he both shoot the faster for far shooting, and also the surer for near pricking.
make him come round compass everywhere, and whipping at the ends, but with discretion, lest he whip in sunder, or else fret, sooner than he is ware of
i read this with the impression he was talking about recurving the tips (but with discretion)
and if they bent them too much while putting in a slight recrve, they would sunder, split/break/.
im sure in these quotes here, that tox is referring to recreational bows, not military.
words can have different meaning depending on the periods they are written for eg.
Etymology: Middle English wippen, whippen; akin to Middle Dutch wippen to move up and down, sway, Old English wīpian to wipe
Date: 14th century
or
Main Entry: 1whip
Pronunciation: \ˈhwip, ˈwip\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whipped; whip·ping
Etymology: Middle English wippen, whippen; akin to Middle Dutch wippen (to move up and down, sway,) Old English wīpian to wipe
Date: 14th century
transitive verb
1: to take, pull, snatch, jerk, or otherwise move very quickly and forcefully
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i read and understood the word whipping as gentle recurving the tips.
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You did right. Looking up a word in the dictionary is really the best way to find out what it means. My favourite, especially for words in previous centuries, is the ‘Oxford English Dictionary’ which has several pager of examples for many words. I get two relevant meanings for whip. One is “to bind round or ‘serve’ with cord etc.’ as in the whipping on a bow string. The other is ”a flexible switch with or without a lash.” Or “a slender flexible branch of a plant”. Also ‘whippy’ meaning “flexible, springy”. So you can see the connection to a whiplash injury.
I found no reference to any bent shape in four pages of definitions,or in yours either.
I really have to disagree with your idea, "that tox is referring to recreational bows, not military.” If you are not aware that English archery at this time was regulated to produce military archers, and that the only recreational bows were thpse used by such women or clergy exempt from compulsory practice, I suggest that you ac6tually read Toxophilus which comments on military barbed arrowheads and arrow shaft materials for war arrows, and check the statutes of Henry VIII concerning archery that mandated practice, leaving no time for “recreational” archery or bows for "recreational bows" for men.
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hello bow-toxo
you wrote
I found no reference to any bent shape in four pages of definitions,or in yours either.
Main Entry: 1whip
Pronunciation: \ˈhwip, ˈwip\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whipped; whip·ping
Etymology: Middle English wippen, whippen; akin to Middle Dutch wippen (to move up and down, sway,) Old English wīpian to wipe
Date: 14th century
the word sway ? = To cause to incline or bend to one side. or To divert; deflect
source http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sway (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sway)
you wrote
I really have to disagree with your idea, "that tox is referring to recreational bows, not military.” If you are not aware that English archery at this time was regulated to produce military archers, and that the only recreational bows were thpse used by such women or clergy exempt from compulsory practice, I suggest that you ac6tually read Toxophilus which comments on military barbed arrowheads and arrow shaft materials for war arrows, and check the statutes of Henry VIII concerning archery that mandated practice, leaving no time for “recreational” archery or bows for "recreational bows" for men.
this quote should explain my reasoning
Phi. I grant, Toxophile, that use of shooting maketh a man draw strong, to shoot at most advantage, to keep his gear, which is no small thing in war; but yet methink that the customable shooting at home, specially at butts and pricks, make nothing at all for strong shooting, which doth most good in war. Therefore, I suppose, if men should use to go into the fields, and learn to shoot mighty strong shots, and never care for any mark at all, they should do much better.
Tox. The truth is, that fashion much used would do much good, but this is to be feared, lest that way could not provoke men to use much shooting, because there should be little pleasure in it. And that in shooting is best, that provoketh a man to use shooting most; for much use maketh men shoot both strong and well, which two-things in shooting every man doth desire. And the chief maintainer of use in any thing is comparison and honest contention. For when a man striveth to be better than another, he will gladly use that thing, though it be never so painful, wherein he would excel; which thing Aristotle very prettily doth note, saying, " Where is comparison, there is victory; where is victory, there is pleasure; and where is pleasure, no man careth what labour or pain he taketh, because of the praise and pleasure that he shall have in doing better than other men."
quote from the first book of shooting Phi. The excellent commodities of shooting in peace time, Toxophile, you have very well and sufficiently declared. Whereby you have so persuaded me, that, God willing, hereafter I will both love it the better, and also use it the ofter. For as much as I can gather of all this communication of ours, the tongue, the nose, the hands, and the feet, be no fitter members or instruments for the body of a man, than is shooting for the whole body of the realm. God hath made the parts of men which be best and most necessary, to serve, not for one purpose only, but for many; as the tongue for speaking and tasting; the nose for smelling, and also for avoiding all excrements which fall out of the head; the hands for receiving of good things, and for putting of [off] all harmful things from the body. So shooting is an exercise of health, a pastime of honest pleasure, and such one also that stoppeth or avoideth all noisome games, gathered and increased by ill rule, as naughty humours be, which hurt and corrupt sore that part of the realm wherein they do remain.
But now if you can show but half so much profit in war of shooting, as you have proved pleasure in peace, then will I surely judge that there be few things that have so manifold commodities and uses joined unto them as it bath.
i believe a person would not buy and have a cunning bowyer dress pike ect there bow if it was not for recreational use.
all bows would have been supplied for warfare ,i believe you would not be expected to bring your own bow to battle. for eg on the maryrose nearly all the bows were kept in boxes most probably more bows than archers,and would be standardised.
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i think piked means to bring the bow ends to a point.
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Quote
make him come round compass everywhere, and whipping at the ends, but with discretion, lest he whip in sunder, or else fret, sooner than he is ware of
i read this with the impression he was talking about recurving the tips (but with discretion)
and if they bent them too much while putting in a slight recrve, they would sunder, split/break/.
Or it could mean that recurving the tips puts more stress on the rest of the bow, increasing the chance of frets there.
i think piked means to bring the bow ends to a point.
But if you read the quote in the first post of this thread, piking is done either side of a fret to stop it getting worse.
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hello bow-toxo
you wrote
I found no reference to any bent shape in four pages of definitions,or in yours either.
Main Entry: 1whip
Pronunciation: \ˈhwip, ˈwip\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): whipped; whip·ping
Etymology: Middle English wippen, whippen; akin to Middle Dutch wippen (to move up and down, sway,) Old English wīpian to wipe
Date: 14th century
the word sway ? = To cause to incline or bend to one side. or To divert; deflect
source http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sway (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sway)
you wrote
I really have to disagree with your idea, "that tox is referring to recreational bows, not military.” If you are not aware that English archery at this time was regulated to produce military archers, and that the only recreational bows were thpse used by such women or clergy exempt from compulsory practice, I suggest that you ac6tually read Toxophilus which comments on military barbed arrowheads and arrow shaft materials for war arrows, and check the statutes of Henry VIII concerning archery that mandated practice, leaving no time for “recreational” archery or bows for "recreational bows" for men.
this quote should explain my reasoning
Phi. I grant, Toxophile, that use of shooting maketh a man draw strong, to shoot at most advantage, to keep his gear, which is no small thing in war; but yet methink that the customable shooting at home, specially at butts and pricks, make nothing at all for strong shooting, which doth most good in war. Therefore, I suppose, if men should use to go into the fields, and learn to shoot mighty strong shots, and never care for any mark at all, they should do much better.
Tox. The truth is, that fashion much used would do much good, but this is to be feared, lest that way could not provoke men to use much shooting, because there should be little pleasure in it. And that in shooting is best, that provoketh a man to use shooting most; for much use maketh men shoot both strong and well, which two-things in shooting every man doth desire. And the chief maintainer of use in any thing is comparison and honest contention. For when a man striveth to be better than another, he will gladly use that thing, though it be never so painful, wherein he would excel; which thing Aristotle very prettily doth note, saying, " Where is comparison, there is victory; where is victory, there is pleasure; and where is pleasure, no man careth what labour or pain he taketh, because of the praise and pleasure that he shall have in doing better than other men."
quote from the first book of shooting Phi. The excellent commodities of shooting in peace time, Toxophile, you have very well and sufficiently declared. Whereby you have so persuaded me, that, God willing, hereafter I will both love it the better, and also use it the ofter. For as much as I can gather of all this communication of ours, the tongue, the nose, the hands, and the feet, be no fitter members or instruments for the body of a man, than is shooting for the whole body of the realm. God hath made the parts of men which be best and most necessary, to serve, not for one purpose only, but for many; as the tongue for speaking and tasting; the nose for smelling, and also for avoiding all excrements which fall out of the head; the hands for receiving of good things, and for putting of [off] all harmful things from the body. So shooting is an exercise of health, a pastime of honest pleasure, and such one also that stoppeth or avoideth all noisome games, gathered and increased by ill rule, as naughty humours be, which hurt and corrupt sore that part of the realm wherein they do remain.
But now if you can show but half so much profit in war of shooting, as you have proved pleasure in peace, then will I surely judge that there be few things that have so manifold commodities and uses joined unto them as it bath.
i believe a person would not buy and have a cunning bowyer dress pike ect there bow if it was not for recreational use.
all bows would have been supplied for warfare ,i believe you would not be expected to bring your own bow to battle. for eg on the maryrose nearly all the bows were kept in boxes most probably more bows than archers,and would be standardised.
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Bending to one side does not imply a permanent bend. Are you reoading my posts at all ? Your beliefs are not relevant to the facts. Englishmen [ and boys] were required to buy the bows and arrows to learn to shoot and for the cumpulsory practice required of able bodied Englishmen between the ages of 16 and 6o. These were not usually yew bows as yew was needed for the wars and ownership was restricted. Bowyers were required to make most bows of 'meane woods'. The crown issued yew warbows and arrows to those men recruited for combat operations. I mcommend you for reading Toxophilus. I suggest that you also refer to the many statutes of Henry VII concerning archery to get a more complete picture. Although many enjoyed the cumpulsory practice, recreational archery per se belongs to later periods. I hope you can get over your obsession with the idea of pampered dandies at the butts in Ascham's [and MR] time.
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Englishmen [ and boys] were required to buy the bows and arrows to learn to shoot and for the cumpulsory practice required of able bodied Englishmen between the ages of 16 and 6o. These were not usually yew bows as yew was needed for the wars and ownership was restricted. Bowyers were required to make most bows of 'meane woods'. The crown issued yew warbows and arrows to those men recruited for combat operations. I mcommend you for reading Toxophilus. I suggest that you also refer to the many statutes of Henry VII concerning archery to get a more complete picture. Although many enjoyed the cumpulsory practice, recreational archery per se belongs to later periods. I hope you can get over your obsession with the idea of pampered dandies at the butts in Ascham's [and MR] time.
Hi,
From a more practical standpoint It seems that bows from meane woods such as Ash find it it difficult achieving weights much over 120/30lbs. If the bows from the MR average between 140/60lbs. It seems quite a jump from practice to warfare. What are your thoughts on this? Does it mean that Yew bows for war were lighter than are thought to have been used on the MR?
Alistair
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the butts in Ascham's [and MR] time.
Hi,
From a more practical standpoint It seems that bows from meane woods such as Ash find it it difficult achieving weights much over 120/30lbs. If the bows from the MR average between 140/60lbs. It seems quite a jump from practice to warfare. What are your thoughts on this? Does it mean that Yew bows for war were lighter than are thought to have been used on the MR?
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I have wondered about that also. The practice was designed to cover all distances and conditions and to be able to hit a mark whether shooting level or at a 45 % angle as Mancini observed. In war, in a tight formation as they usually were, only the first rank would be able to shoot level, while the other ranks would have to shoot over the heads of those in front of them. As an archer shooting upward can draw about a 40 % stronger bow than when shooting level, he could use a stronger bow than he was used to. The sheaves of arrows had a smaller number of shorter arrows with the longer ones. The archer would be able to fully draw them if the long draw at a level mark was beyond his strength. I'm just guessing, but it seems to make sense.
Alistair
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Englishmen [ and boys] were required to buy the bows and arrows to learn to shoot and for the cumpulsory practice required of able bodied Englishmen between the ages of 16 and 6o. These were not usually yew bows as yew was needed for the wars and ownership was restricted. Bowyers were required to make most bows of 'meane woods'. The crown issued yew warbows and arrows to those men recruited for combat operations. I mcommend you for reading Toxophilus. I suggest that you also refer to the many statutes of Henry VII concerning archery to get a more complete picture. Although many enjoyed the cumpulsory practice, recreational archery per se belongs to later periods. I hope you can get over your obsession with the idea of pampered dandies at the butts in Ascham's [and MR] time.
Hi,
From a more practical standpoint It seems that bows from meane woods such as Ash find it it difficult achieving weights much over 120/30lbs. If the bows from the MR average between 140/60lbs. It seems quite a jump from practice to warfare. What are your thoughts on this? Does it mean that Yew bows for war were lighter than are thought to have been used on the MR?
Alistair
my guess is, self whitewood bows such as ash would have been made much flatter than yew to achieve high draw weights.
but elm seems to work well to high draw weights
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As an archer shooting upward can draw about a 40 % stronger bow than when shooting level, he could use a stronger bow than he was used to.
Hello BT,
That's an interesting theory about why there were the different lengths of shaft found in a sheaf and one which I'd not come across before.
I'm curious how you arrived at the figure about an archer being 40% stronger if he/she draws at 45 degrees, or so, over flat shooting? Is it based on your empirical experience as I have found the opposite to be the case. I think this is due to the raising of the bow arm shortening the draw length or if the angle is made via a torso/leg bend the general unnaturalness of the position causing more difficulty. Having seen all of the UK's heavy shooters in the flesh I have noticed that many draw flat and then incline to 45 to shoot for distance. This is partly to aim but is also done whilst flight shooting. If and archer could only draw 100lbs flat I find it difficult to believe that all of a sudden 140lbs would be achievable if the bow was draw at an inclined angle. I regularly shoot a bows over 150lbs and can do this flat but there is no way I could shoot a bow well over 200lbs incline or not. What is you source for the 40% extra theory, please?
Cheers,
Jeremy
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As an archer shooting upward can draw about a 40 % stronger bow than when shooting level, he could use a stronger bow than he was used to.
Hello BT,
What is you source for the 40% extra theory, please?
Cheers,
Jeremy
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My theory source is personal experience noted with a bow a little beyond my usual strength and the actions tested for poundage on gym equipment, after another shooter offered the same observation. A posting by another member claimed that it would be impossible for him to shoot level with his warbow without serious physical damage. Perhaps there is a majority one way or another and other members could offer their own experience.
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i shoot my 133# bow flat at targets
although it is not as comfortable as shooting into the air . it is no harder really. except aiming which is why i shoot instinctivley.
i wouldn't say i could shoot a much heavier bow into the air, and not be able to shoot the same bow flat.
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i think we may be drifting a little off topic O:)
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i think we may be drifting a little off topic O:)
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Right. Sorry.
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fashionable shoes of the period were referred to as "piked", having long tapered toes.
pike are long and tapered.
a pike was used in medieval warfare. looooong pole with an iron s'pike atop.
good old anglo saxon was rather more descriptive than norman and looked to nature for similarities.
the bow is refered to in old texts as "him" and he stands like a man. When he "bows" his "back" is outward and his "belly" inward.
why then would pike mean to shorten when they already had a perfectly good word for reducing the length of something: Shorten