Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: 1776J on February 12, 2011, 08:01:11 pm
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Hello fellas.
I'm applying sinew right now,...
I "Think" I may have applied it a little thick in the handle area? Not sure. You see, as I press down its as if there are little air bubbles popping as I go.
Is that normal,... what if I don't get all those bubbles out even though I think I did?
Is it a response to having done something wrong as I'm going here???
Also, seems that some small spots aren't sticking well?? Like a small 1/4" section of a few strands maybe,.. like that.
Am I using enough glue?
Have I not soaked it enough first in the glue perhaps?
Is the glue to thin?
Should I simply add a little more glue to that area?
Should I pull it off (Though I'm pretty sure that isn't gonna happen!!!) and reapply it if possible?
Thanks for the help fellas.....
gonna post photos as I'm working....
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The handle area (where I think it may be to thick perhaps...or???.....
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP3827.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP3828.jpg)
The rest of it as I go here....
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP3829.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP3830.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP3831.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP3833.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP3834.jpg)
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It will most likely be ok. It's not super easy to mess up sinewing in my opinion. In regards to it coming off. Depends on what glue you use, but I've never heard of sinew coming off a bow I think. I might of once when the sinew was drying, it might of lifted off as it reflexed, I think I heard someone say that before, but I could be wrong. It's probably dry-ish/tacky-ish by now, but if not just stick with it as the glue slowly gets tacky and rub it down to get rid of air bubbles. If the sinew is'nt sticking well it may be the glue is to hot/watery/not ready yet, but sometimes when it cools it gets tacky and sticky even though it's watery and not sticky when hot. I still don't glue anything until it makes my fingers stick together, usually beady and makes little glue balls at that point which is annoying but I know it's good and ready then, I just heat it up a bit on warm on the stove if it starts to get too beady. Probably has to do with water evaporating. (this is for sinew/hide glue) Make sure to apply a couple extra heavy layers of glue on top of the finished sinewing as it's annowing having sinews lift latter on. It will probably be fine.
"Also, seems that some small spots aren't sticking well??"
It don't hurt to be generous with the glue, for me it never has anyway. If the sinew it falling off or sliding to much, try putting more glue on. And smoothing with your fingers real good, coat the whole bow in glue after each layer of sinew. That is if your doing more than one layer of sinew.
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It will most likely be ok. It's not super easy to mess up sinewing in my opinion. In regards to it coming off. Depends on what glue you use, but I've never heard of sinew coming off a bow I think. I might of once when the sinew was drying, it might of lifted off as it reflexed, I think I heard someone say that before, but I could be wrong. It's probably dry-ish/tacky-ish by now, but if not just stick with it as the glue slowly gets tacky and rub it down to get rid of air bubbles. If the sinew is'nt sticking well it may be the glue is to hot/watery/not ready yet, but sometimes when it cools it gets tacky and sticky even though it's watery and not sticky when hot. Probably has to do with water evaporating. (this is for sinew/hide glue) Make sure to apply a couple extra heavy layers of glue on top of the finished sinewing as it's annowing having sinews lift latter on. It will probably be fine.
I actually had the glu mixed and heated for HOURS!!! Its like really thin syrup.... didn't gel up right away stays liquified pretty well actually for a while then gels up.
I actually am using musician's hide glue from a fellow I found on ebay. Was recommended by a fellow on here.
I've been applying a little more glue here and there where its a little thick, to get it well coated but trying to walk the fine line of not applying TOO much glue. ???
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I've ever only used sinew glue, so it could be a great deal different from hide glue, so you might want to keep that in mind.
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I've ever only used sinew glue, so it could be a great deal different from hide glue, so you might want to keep that in mind.
OK, I'm confused. ???
What is the difference?
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I've ever only used sinew glue, so it could be a great deal different from hide glue, so you might want to keep that in mind.
Its the same thing,... hide glue/sinew glue,... its just musician's hide glue,... generally real good quality.
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Anyone wrap their sinew with jute twine to keep it tight against their bow after sinewing???
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It's been a while no a long while sence I sinewed a bow. But did quite a few. My first 2 were swinewed BL. I can't help you with the glue. I've only used hide glue and I'm not sure if theres a difference. I heard of musicians cememt. I liked mine thick enough to stay on the bow and not run off the sides. Don't skimp and make sure you do the sides good. You don't need it lifting off later. I 'd make some really thin to soak my sinew in. Seise the bow really good with the thicker. But a layer on and wait untill good and tacky but not to dry. Then I press out any air bubbles.After I did a couple bows I started useing a rist pin out of a 302 ford motor spray it down with pam and smouthed the sinew out. It did'nt take long to find out how messey it was useing your fingers. You have to clean and spray your pin down a coupe times if not tacky enough. This gets the air bubles out really good and compresses the sinew at the same time. After it was fairly dry BUT NOT COMPLETELY I seised the bow again good and put the second layer on. Depending how thick and the poundage you want if you need another layer. DON'T DON'T BEEN YOUR BOW AND MAKE A REST WHERE IT'LL SET UP ON THE HANDLE AREA WITH SINEW POINTING UP. So when it drys you don't want any pressure on either of the limbs. You want the reflex to been the limbs even. I do things slowwwww and I'd wait a week maybe more TO MAKE SURE IT'S COMPLETELY DRY. I'd even be told by some people that they even used a hair dryer for and hour after they thought it was dry. I'd always have another bow going OR SOMETHING SO YOU DON'T WANT TO START BEENING YOUR BOW TO SOON..
If I wanted 65#s or over I'd put on 3 layers. But I was just starting out so I'm not sure if you needed it.
I'm sure there's shorter and easer ways to do it. When I started the boy scout manual (LATE 50'S) build a bow for a badge. Did'nt go into to many details.
I would'nt worry about if you put to much on the handle area.
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Sounds good much appreciated!
Yes I basically put on two layers at this point. I came close to the sides (as I did some trapping on it beforehand) so I wasn't sure if I wanted to run it down the sides where the trapping was done????
I sized it the day before, bit only with a thin layer of glue, nothing thick.
I kept the sinew soaked but not to the point where it was curling up on the ends like noodles. Hope it was correct?
I've seen photos of it being done and read it,... then read others stories of the sinew resembling spaghetti noodles??!!
The only way it resembled noodles was if I heated the sinew up to much,... so I kept it at about 115 and just dealt with the heat on my hands when I soaked it in the glue.
I just wrapped the bow with twine to squeeze it.
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Do yourself a favor and wrap it with inner tube and then warm the bow slightly. That will re-liquify the glue andcompress it all together and force excess glue and bubbles out. You can safely put on way more than you have there.
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Do yourself a favor and wrap it with inner tube and then warm the bow slightly. That will re-liquify the glue andcompress it all together and force excess glue and bubbles out. You can safely put on way more than you have there.
Pat,... thanks a million,.. sounds like a great idea and the rubber won't stick either!! hahaha
I'll take off the twine tomorrow,... and see about some innertube or something of the like?
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After I did a couple bows I started useing a rist pin out of a 302 ford motor spray it down with pam and smouthed the sinew out. It did'nt take long to find out how messey it was useing your fingers. You have to clean and spray your pin down a coupe times if not tacky enough. This gets the air bubles out really good and compresses the sinew at the same time.
I've never backed a bow with sinew yet, but if and when I do - getting Pam on the glue between layers would be the LAST thing I would want to do. I can't believe that actually worked for you!
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You can also wrap it in just plain old plastic wrap as well.. ;)
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You can also wrap it in just plain old plastic wrap as well.. ;)
Hey, that would work! haha
Lord, I guess there's a million ways I suppose!! ;D
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I'm looking at the sinew after its started drying up and it looks like perhaps "some" bits of the sinew perhaps either wasn't "soaked" enough on its ends or maybe more glue should have been added
as it looks a little "dry" here and there with a few ends of the sinew not laying perfectly flat, but rather just slightly protruding from the surface????
Take a look at the photos fellas,...
Would it be good to just wrap, heat and apply more glue.... or??.....
??? ??? ???
Thanks in advance!
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3851.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3850.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3849.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3845.jpg)
(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/pipe/IMGP3847.jpg)
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Well from my understanding, the plastic wrap doesn't allow for the moisture to escape from the hide glue/sinew so you'll never get it dry. Could be wrong though, and hopefully someone else will chime in.
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thinking of warming up the bow with a hair dryer (sinew area that is) and then applying more glue over top. I don't want it to be to much glue though...when is "enough"??
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did you soak the strands of sinew in water before using? to soften them?
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Those longitudinal cracks in the sinew are from the bow drying too fast,I just got done sinewing a composite bow a few days ago and i started by wiping the core with alcohol and then giving it 4-5 coats of 20% concentration hide glue and letting each coat of glue dry and then finaly laid on the sinew and it has held up very well,my previous bow which i blew up was dome the same way and the sinew was literaly fused with the wood,It took 4 days of soaking to get the horn and sinew seperated from the wood.I hope you are not using rabbit glue as it has grease in it and is used by artists for restoration work.
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did you soak the strands of sinew in water before using? to soften them?
No, I simply let them soften in the glue for a while,... like for two minutes or so with each bundle.
I started out soaking them but they ended up like curly noodles and wouldn't lay down for anything!
So, instead, I soaked them in the glue, while holding them, switching off with my hands and sqeegeeing the bundle, working the glue into the sinew,
dunking over and over, swishing them around.
I kept the glue probably around 115 degrees or so.
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Those longitudinal cracks in the sinew are from the bow drying too fast,I just got done sinewing a composite bow a few days ago and i started by wiping the core with alcohol and then giving it 4-5 coats of 20% concentration hide glue and letting each coat of glue dry and then finaly laid on the sinew and it has held up very well,my previous bow which i blew up was dome the same way and the sinew was literaly fused with the wood,It took 4 days of soaking to get the horn and sinew seperated from the wood.I hope you are not using rabbit glue as it has grease in it and is used by artists for restoration work.
I just did the sinewing last evening,... I didn't see any cracks in it. its dry in the house but its not that dry to have dried it out that fast,... I couldn't imagine that when guys told me that it takes about a week for the sinew job to dry correctly????
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Those longitudinal cracks in the sinew are from the bow drying too fast,
I hope you are not using rabbit glue as it has grease in it and is used by artists for restoration work.
That's axctually the sinew itself,...no cracks,...sorry the photos weren't great,...hard to get good photos of the sinewed backing!! :-\
I'm familiar with rabbit skin glue, nope I used hide glue, got it from a fellow on ebay, it was referred to as "musicians hide glue" a few fellows on here have used it to some great success.
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"I started out soaking them but they ended up like curly noodles and wouldn't lay down for anything!"
Next time take a pan or bucket or something and put just enough water to barely cover the sinews, so they don't go floating around everywhere and let all your sinew soak for a good while, like a half an hour to an hour or so. Just leave it all in there and take out enough to make a bundle for each bundle you make. The reason your sinews wouldn't lay down when noodle like is due to your glue, if you saturate the bundles with enough glue before applying, or if your glue is just not ready yet. The glue added to you smoothing out the sinew on the bow should be enough to stretch out the sinew and keep it from curling up in a noodle shape. Let the glue be thick and sticky if you can't get the sinews to smooth out straight, it will be harder glue consistency to work with but will hold down the smoothed sinews better. On the matter of using too much glue, you will smooth out the extra glue when smoothing out the sinews as you glue em down anyway, you seem to be worried about "too much glue" a little too much, ;D. Don't worry about too much, what you don't want is too little. The extra will be squeezed out when smoothing out the sinew as you apply bundles.
Edit: I would suggest using sinew glue. Don't have squat to back it up being better than hide glue, but it just makes sense that sinew would bond with sinew, and work better than hide glue. I don't trust any company not to adulterate any product with anything. Plus is puts to use those broken too short sinews you can't use, :)
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the sinew wil only curl up if you soak in too hot water, if you soak in cold water or luke warm water for half hour they go softer and much easier to work and absorb the glue better.. I dont know 115F, but dont go above 60-65C
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"the sinew wil only curl up if you soak in too hot water, if you soak in cold water or luke warm water for half hour they go softer and much easier to work and absorb the glue better.. I dont know 115F, but dont go above 60-65C"
What da ya know?, never soaked mine in hot water so never happened to me. Good to know though. Thank you dragonman.
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i had it very warm,,....to warm obviously ::)
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Yeah you definitely had the water too hot. I made the mistake of doing this a few times when i first started using real sinew for arrows. A good rule of thumb if you don't have a thermometer handy is to get the water just hot enough where you can still hold your finger in it.
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Yeah you definitely had the water too hot. I made the mistake of doing this a few times when i first started using real sinew for arrows. A good rule of thumb if you don't have a thermometer handy is to get the water just hot enough where you can still hold your finger in it.
That's the way I kept the glue,...just soaked it there,... TBB says he just swishes it in the hot glue, so I figured that would do.
I have a lot of horizontal cracks arcross the glue on the bow now. Guess that's just normal? It couldn't have dried to fast as its been sitting in a house where its about 75 degrees??
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I put my bows in my basement where it is a little damp during the winter as the hot air from the heater literaly sucks out the moisture out of everything,you could put a layer of seran wrap on top of the sinew and leave the sides open to control the drying.
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Good topic. This subject comes around every now and then and I forget that not everyone knows how to do this. ;D
As for the jute twine, that's what I use to wrap my sinew. I've been doing it that way for about 4 years now. I guess I was one of the first to use this method. Got some funny looks when I first started. ::)
Most guys use ACE bandages to wrap the sinew. The bandages breathe and they don't stick to the sinew too bad. I wouldn't use any type of plastic or rubber over the sinew. The sinew needs air... preferably dry air that is moving (like a from a fan).
If the sinew is showing cracks as it dries, I think you are using too much glue. JMO. You don't really need much glue to get the sinew to stick.
The best way to fix the cracks at this point is to wrap the sinew with an ACE bandage and heat the sinew gently. Remove the bandages and see if it helps. And/Or you can brush on thin coats of glue and build up layers until the cracks are gone. You can sand lightly between layers of glue.