Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: dragonman on January 26, 2011, 02:36:08 pm
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Hi all, I've been re-reading through the perry reflex section in the TBB, and ended up a bit confused. Can any one tell me what is the difference between between a perry reflex and just an ordinary glued in reflex? I often glue in some reflex when putting on a backing, was wondering , does that make them a 'perry reflex'???
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Perry reflex is the act of glueing in reflex. Dan Perry, a flight shooter from Utah, popularized the method and uses it when making up his backed flight bows. Pre-bending before glue up I don't consider Perry reflex and I don't consider using this method on glass lam bows as Perry reflex either. In wood bows it changes the neutral plane of the bow plus lessens the compression and tension stresses in the wood components of a drawn bow.
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looks like I've been making perry reflex bows without realizing!!! I think I learned it off the PA forum a few years ago, I thought it was a traditional old method though, havent the Chinese and and various others been gluing in reflex for thousands of years? What about the Northern two wood static recurves that used reaction woods, I thought they glued in reflex? Not trying to rob Dan Perry of his credit, just trying to understand things, many things get re-invented, doesnt take the credit off the new inventor
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I'm sure this method has been around for centuries but after Dan described his method for building world class flight bows folks started calling it Perry Reflex. Dan would probably be the first to tell you it wasn't his brainstorm.
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well I guess I picked it up off the PA without realizing this was the perry reflexing process, I kind of skipped over that chapter n the TBB without giving it full attention the first time around. Thanks to Dan it resurfaced otherwise I for one probably wouldnt be making them now and they are a GOOD design. I also dont know for 100% sure its been done before so maybe he did invent it. I use epoxy to do it I wonder how much reflex you could get in with hide glue?
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IMO, much more than about 3" to 4" of Perry reflex becomes self defeating. You end up loosing more reflex due to over stressing.
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Dragonman, I've sent you a PM with a link to a discussion where Dan answers quite a few questions regarding reflexing.
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Thanks Lombard, thats very interesting, It appears there is a lot more to the art of reflexing than it first seems, TBB didnt really explain it clearly (in my opinion anyway). I think there are a lot of bowyers out there who dont understand this stuff that Dan is talking about here, but they are important bow making principles...( for laminate bows)
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Lombard, will you send me a copy of Dan Perry's explanation?
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Lombard,
I wouldn't mind that info, too, if you don't mind. I've tried it a couple of times, but it's been kind of "by guess and by gosh".
Thanks for asking about this, dragonman, I was curious, too!
Frode
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Lombard, I would like a copy of Dan Perry's description of his reflex.
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You're welcome Dragonman. Pat, Frode, and Hedgeapple PM has been sent.
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I wouldn't mind seeing his explanation either if you don't mind sending it to me as well Lombard.
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Might want to ask a Mod or Admin if we can just post that link in one of the archive sections? Maybe? I know we link to TG now and then.
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Ya, a pinned article would save alot of trouble, but if it isn't too much to ask Lombard, could I also get that info?
I'm planning on a pretty severe reflexed bow soon and would appreciate the knowledge.
Thanks
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Barrage, & Easternarcher info has been PMed.
Nate, fine suggestion. Pat B. has the link. If he thinks it relevant and not a violation of rules, he may do just that.
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I'll check it out and see what we can do. ;)
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Hmmm, I'm willing to be unpopular for this view, but to be the name 'Perry Reflex' just adds confusion.
Like when we started calling 'Cycles per second' 'Hertz'.
When did this term come in and who coined it?
I'm sure people have been laminating onto reflexed formers for a very long time.
I'm not trying to downplay anyone's contribution to our knowledge base, but to me the term seems to be having the opposite effect as it is no longer actually descriptive.
Surley Asiatic composite bows are made with the use of reflex formers? Maybe 'Genghis reflex' might be more appropriate? :o
Del
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You are beating a long dead horse Del ::)
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Del, Dan didn't invent reflexing, and will tell you that. What he did do was use the concept expertly, and was able to figure out what is happening structurally and mechanically in the design, and explain it in a coherent manner. To this wit Perry Reflex kinda just grew out of that, foisted on him by others.
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Lombard, could you PM the link to me too? Please O:)
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Del, Dan didn't invent reflexing, and will tell you that. What he did do was use the concept expertly, and was able to figure out what is happening structurally and mechanically in the design, and explain it in a coherent manner. To this wit Perry Reflex kinda just grew out of that, foisted on him by others.
Thanks for that...I just wish they'd stop foisting, it adds nothing to the understanding of our art.
I'd have thought the term might be a bit of an embarasment to him?
@NTD :_ Sorry I didn't know the horse was deceased, I for one shall abstain from using the term (no dissrespect intended of course, I just like plain language)
Maybe I'll start quoting draw weight in 'cat power' like the old horse power but based on Felis Domesticus ::)... Anyone who has tried to give a cat a bath will have some idea of the magnitude of unit ;D.
Del
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You didn't know Del? If you hold a cats head under water until they lay still, they wash up rather well. >:D
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You didn't know Del? If you hold a cats head under water until they lay still, they wash up rather well. >:D
I'll tell Mrs Cat of you, then you'll be sorry :o
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Tim Baker is actually the one who named the tecnique after Dan Perry. Dan had success using this tecnique in flight shooting and to the best of everyone's knowledge was the first one to attempt an explanation of how and why it worked. Naming tecniques after individuals who made something popular or otherwise had an impact on it's use is a common place procedure. I think Dan earned it.
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I agree with Badger, maybe Dan wasnt the first to reflex a bow but his timely reintroduction along with an explanation did help a lot of people to make better bows.( myself included) It is one thing to do something but another to it with the understanding of what you are doing and why. This is what pushes the frontiers forwards. I just wanted to understand, and to be honest even after reading the explanation I dont grasp all the physics but I do understand enough for my level of bow making- I think!!!
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Dragonman, like you I don't understand the physics but that doesn't really matter. I don't have to completely understand for it to work. I'd be totally lost in life if I had to understand everything about it first before I could enjoy it. ;)
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you're right Pat, that was some interesting stuff there, but a lot of the technicalities go over my head. I do think some of the principles regarding reflex are the key to makng better laminate bows, but how complex it needs to get for the average bowyer to benefit. I 'm not sure. It's not good to comlicate things too much , I like to keep it simpe (relatively)
Dave
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There are engineers and there are the rest of us! ;) Thank goodness for engineers but I'm glad I ain't one. ::)
I have "sticky"ed the Leatherwall thread at the top of this page. Lots of good info and hopefully will help to explain the Perry reflex phenomena.
Dan used to come on PA a few years back. I can't remember if that was before the big shake up here on PA but a search might reveal more of Dan's thoughts on the subject. If it was before the change, most of that stuff was lost to cyber space.