Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Frode on November 27, 2010, 03:16:35 pm
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Hi all,
I've been learning to make my own strings, and it's not as complicated as I thought it might be (I slept through the cordage part of Scouts, too), but...
When tying Flemish loops, all goes well, and the result looks like store bought, but except for a couple, after stringing and pulling a bit, the tails unwind!
I think everything is long enough, and it all seems nice and tight when it's finished up, but ??? ??? ???
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Frode
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Hi all,
I've been learning to make my own strings, and it's not as complicated as I thought it might be (I slept through the cordage part of Scouts, too), but...
When tying Flemish loops, all goes well, and the result looks like store bought, but except for a couple, after stringing and pulling a bit, the tails unwind!
I think everything is long enough, and it all seems nice and tight when it's finished up, but ??? ??? ???
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Frode
have you waxed it beforehand? that could be why it keeps coming undone, just a thought
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I would much rather show you than try to explain this, but I don't think you want to drive to Rapid City South Dakota just to make a bowstring (but if you do we can go hunt pheasants afterwards).
Here goes. The loop looks fantastic, but the tails should look just like the loop. In the photo your upper tail has the green wrapping around the black and the lower tail has the black wrapping around the green. When one of the sets of strands wraps around the other then only one set of the strands is working and the other isn't getting pulled tight to lock it all together. Both sets of strands has to be equally twisted together.
Once you have the loop formed, pull both the green strands and the glack strands straight - undo all the twist. Then lay the tag ends against one or the other strands, do the same with the other and plait the two just like you did when you made the loop. Clear as mud?
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yea thats what i see and make sure you twist the ends the same direction .
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Make your string kinda reverse wrapped. Don't worry about everyone saying reverse wrap is bad for bow strings, if you do it this way it's fine. The problem with reverse wrap is really reverse wrapping strings that were reverse wrapped to begin with. That will always fail. Anyway, take your plys you are going to make a string with and divide into two bundles. Wax each individual string up and down once with some kind of wax like beeswax. (This is important too). Only once up and down or it will build up and look bad. You don't have to twist the plys that much, but it's not that bad to give it some twist. I use 10# -15# breaking strength linen thread for mine. Eight plys for a 50# string do the job. I even use eight plys for up to 70# bows sometimes. You have to reverse wrap em a bit because if you dont the loop won't hold as good. I mean opposed to just the strings around each other. But you could I guess just twist the plys around each other, I see guys do it, I just have tried it and have had better results giving it a bit of a reverse wrap.
HERES THE PART THATS MAKING IT COME UNDONE
Take the string after the plys are wrapped around each other a bit, and make a loop with about a inch and a half or so extra left over after the loop. Unwrap the two plys right below the loop on the part that is the main string and hold somehow, I use my big toe, ( :) ), and also unwrap the little bit of extra ply hanging off after the loop. Now look at the direction the plys are wrapped around each other. This is what I'm talking about. What you have to do is to unwrap the extra ply that is the main string about a inch and a half, and the extra plys left over from the loop, unwrap em back to the 2 plays they were before, and wrap one play from the hanging extra around the main string play that is unwrapped. And then the other. But you wrap them in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION that the plys are wrapped around each other. This makes a strong loop, as it basically makes the string reverse wrapped around it's self when you wrap em back up, form the tension of where you initially reverse wrapped (or slightly twsited, whatever, :) ). Your wrapping the plys around each other in the direction they were twisted, wo they twist back in the opposite direction and hold well. If you wrap it the same direction as the plys are twisted in will come undone automatically. I can see in your photo that you wrapped it in the same direction as your plys are twisted. All you have to do to make it stay is wrap em in the opposite direction. Was that confusing? It sounded so to me when typing it,... lol
(http://i54.tinypic.com/jr2p81.jpg)
(http://i52.tinypic.com/b3wokm.jpg)
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What JW said! ;D
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Search You Tube for Flemish twist sting. See it done correctly, and it will no doubt be a breeze for you from there. Or go to 3Rivers and buy Doing the Twist.
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It also looks to me like your tension is uneven. The green has less twist than the black, and I also think you need more wax. I use bees wax for twisting the loops, and regular string wax for smoothing out the fuzzies.
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OK. This hurts my head. Seriously, though, thanks for all the responses! If I can pick it up and do it with my own two hands, I get it. When I read it, I usually have to reread several times, when it comes to knots and cords and such.
@Hawkeyes and Bryan, This is B-50, waxed, but it sounds like I should have waxed it a little more? It does seem like it became un-waxy pretty quick as I worked it.
Then, tension on the tails needs to even out...
@JW and toomanyknots and adb, I think I see what you're saying, I'm going to have to twist a few tonight to get it to click. :-\ I wonder if I balled it up by trying to twist the tags too tightly, instead of just guaranteeing that they wrapped evenly...
@NTD, You mean the twisting or the pheasant hunting? Right about now the pheasants sound better :D.
@Lombard, Good advice, seeing is understanding.
OK, here goes nuttin...
Thanks,
Frode
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By the way, the other end of this string was a timber hitch, and it worked fine! Which I guess I knew would be the case, but it sure didn't look like a few twists around the loop could hold that much force. Huh.
Frode
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"I wonder if I balled it up by trying to twist the tags too tightly, instead of just guaranteeing that they wrapped evenly..."
Naw, just twist the extras (or tails) around em in the opposite direction that you did. It will work fine. Try it. I don't give a hoot what anybody says. I'm made probably a thousand of em. Never broke one or had one come out once. I don't care what anybody says. And give your main string a bit more twist before you do that.
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Hey Frode, if you aren't sick of reading yet, here's my 2 cents...
It looks like you tried to do the flemish twist when you combined the tag ends of the loop to the main strands, and then flemish twist the two bundles together after. I made this mistake the first time I made one after watching some crappy youtube video with some guy who didn't know what he was doing. You end up with a really bulky looking string where the ends combine.
When your loop is done and you fold the tag ends over onto the main bundles, immediately start twisting the two bundles the same as you did for the loop. Don't twist the tag end separately. I hope this makes sense. If you hate reading and would rather see it done, I put a link to a good video in the how-to section of the forum a few weeks ago. Check that out.
Also, after you have both loops done, make sure you twist the string an additional 15-20 times before you put a whole bunch of tension on it. This will keep the ends from untwisting. At least that's what I do. Then I'll put it on the bow, brace it, wax it, and then rub a piece of leather up and down the string to warm up the beeswax a bit and work it in.
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go check out my flemish how to on my you tube page.
super easy,no jig.
search.... michbowguy
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I got my hands on "doin' the twist" (as mentioned by Lombard) and the four strings I made were all fine in construction but the only thing I had trouble with was getting the total length right for the finished string. I made strings for two osage selfbows, calculating for 3" shorter than the nock to nock length but the brace height was too shallow so I "experimented" a little with making a string 4" shorter and also twisting the string some more. Both worked fine but the "over-twisted" string has twists about every 5/8's of an inch - it looks and feels fine but is that a little too short to have them?
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I should have come to you guys first!
@Hatch The one I made that worked, I made four times, and it's wound tighter than an eight day clock! :P
@michbowguy Hey! I've been to your channel many a time, I just never made the connection! Very good video, I see what I did wrong, now!
@Cameroo Not at all! I'll take all the help I can get! I believe you are right, that is what I tried to do, and it did make a bulky end of a string. Maybe we saw the same original video. The link you posted was much clearer, and made more sense. That tip with the leather sounds good too. I've just rubbed it in with my fingers, and it never felt like it was working in completely.
@toomanyknots Yup, I see it now! Takes a couple of throws, sometimes ;D.
I'll post a success story soon!
Thanks,
Frode
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All right then Frode, ya ready to go hunting pheasants now?
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All right then Frode, ya ready to go hunting pheasants now?
Gettin' close, JW, gettin' close. I got one together, strung it, and as soon as I started to let up on the stringer it started to unwind :o; I hadn't wound the string any! Soon as I wrapped it back up and put some twist into the string, it was fine! A little short, but fine. I'm about to tie up another one, with a neater job of it and a little more length.
Frode
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Soon as I wrapped it back up and put some twist into the string, it was fine! A little short, but fine.
Frode
Told ya so! :P I'm just buggin ya because those are the same two problems I had. I think I redid the second loop on my first string about 3 times before I got the length just right. Until you get a good idea of how long to make it, cut your strands a little long so that if you end up short, you can undo the tag ends, put in a few more twists in the loop, then twist it up again. I found the general rule of "3 inches shorter than the bow" to be a bit short. I think mine are about 2 or 2.5, although I dont measure. I prefer to be half an inch long than too short. You can always shorten the string up some by adding more twist, but you can't make it longer!
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AlllllRightyThen! You want to get the true skinny, you gotta talk to the right people.
This is number two, and, including the time it took to tap some nails into a board for a jig, took less than an hour to twist and serve! I just got back from putting about 40 arrows through it, and no sign of unraveling! I reckon the next one shouldn't take more than 20 minutes.
Thanks everyone!
Frode
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Beautiful work Frode! I like making strings!
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Nice work,once you get it ,it is like riding a bike ,you will never forget. :)
Pappy
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Frode Glad to see you got the twist down !
Now go back to the comment of the leather,(use it or thin cardboard to protect your fingers from burning) with the bow strung go hard and fast create as much heat as you can ,it not only works the wax in but takes the stretch out of the string
if you don't think so next time you put a new string on measure the brace height then do it and measure again. when its done twist it to the right height again then you are truly finished!!Have fun Guy !!
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great job Frode. Jus remember when comin out of your loop make sure to match up your colors and keep on jus like you made your loop and wax about the last 18 inches real good before you make your loop!Makin strings is good fun and soon you'll have em hangin everywhere! ;)
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great job Frode. Jus remember when comin out of your loop make sure to match up your colors and keep on jus like you made your loop and wax about the last 18 inches real good before you make your loop!Makin strings is good fun and soon you'll have em hangin everywhere! ;)
Everyone has their own technique, but it think it's irrelevant whether or not you match up the colors. I've made them either way (because some stings I make are 1 color, so I can't tell which is which), and they turn out the same. That's just my novice opinion though. I always wondered why you would have to match them.
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I'm no professional string maker by no means,but I think it puts even tension on your loop and helps to hold everything together.As for makin one color strings >:( drives me nuts!it would be easier to jus twist em up but that was the way i was shown and it works for me.Maybe someone a bit more experienced will chime in and comment on color to color reasoning?Durnit Cam now ya got my brain in O.D. ;D Off to do some research!LOL
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I'm guessing the only reason is so that it looks nice. But with two bundles of the same color, I can't see it making any difference.
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Frode Glad to see you got the twist down !
Now go back to the comment of the leather...
Thanks, I should have mentioned that! After everything was said and done and strung, I did go back and wax some more and give it a good rubbing down with a scrap of leather. It does a much better job of heating things up and working the wax in than fingertips alone! It all smoothed down nice and flat.
Thanks for all the encouragement and kind words, guys.
The only thing that worries me is, Pappy's never seen me ride a bike! :o
Frode
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Frode Glad to see you got the twist down !
Now go back to the comment of the leather,(use it or thin cardboard to protect your fingers from burning) with the bow strung go hard and fast create as much heat as you can ,it not only works the wax in but takes the stretch out of the string
if you don't think so next time you put a new string on measure the brace height then do it and measure again. when its done twist it to the right height again then you are truly finished!!Have fun Guy !!
I dont use any thing other than my fingers to rub in wax
I find using leather or cardboard makes the string wax combo look dirty.
Plus after all the years of wrenching i have so many callouses and can barely
feel my finger pads anyhow.
Sure i may get a blister but i dont feel that eithet.
Plus my strings look cleaner
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I dont use any thing other than my fingers to rub in wax
Plus after all the years of wrenching i have so many callouses and can barely
feel my finger pads anyhow.
Sure i may get a blister but i dont feel that eithet.
Plus my strings look cleaner
So... You're using leather, it's just built into your fingers! ;D
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cameroo i nver thought of it like that :D
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Way to go Frode. Now your cooking with Crisco! ;)