Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: Michael C. on November 03, 2010, 08:21:20 pm
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Maybe this is a silly question but why do you use copper instead of some other metal to make knapping tools? I've noticed that some people use horseshoe nails but I didn't know if there is some property of copper that is preferable.
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Copper is just soft enough to give a little but not as soft as something like lead....a harder metal like steal would crush the rock....I'm not much of a knapper, but being somewhat familiar with metals, I would assume this is it ???
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copper is a softer metal,its maliable(sp)
in other words the material has give to it
it will grab the rock and pull the flake off and not just crush it.
other metals like steel/iron dont work well for percussion becuase they are hard metals
they dont have the give thats needed to grab the rock
as far as horseshoe nails go,they are a harder metal
but they can be used for fine flaking and notching
i use one(or ued to)for edge work and notches
now i am into using moose bittles for percussion and deer antler tines for pressure flaking and notching
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Thanks that makes sense. I just didn't know for sure because I watched a video where I guy spun copper wire with a drill to make it harder, which I would think defeats the purpose your talking about. I am trying to put together a kit and didn't know what the difference was.
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the purpose of twisting the copper wire is to harden it
the wire that he is using is fine as it is,but wears a little quiker
you can twist it,pound it
it makes it not fold over as easy during use
even this so called hardened copper is softer than other metals
its even softer than brass i believe
ive been wondering how pewter would work
im just not up to take one of my dragon statues and finding out
but i have learned to like antler more than anything for knapping
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MY Opinion: Both the procussion and pressure flaking techniques require that some of the force of the blow or pressure be absorbed by the billet (stone, horn, etc) or horn flaker, copper, bone, while the remainder of the force is imparted into the material and hopefully at the desired angle. Copper has been around in some areas for thousands of years, just not in the refined and shapes we now have. The copper you can buy at the hardware store is soft drawn and although it will grab on to the abraded area of your material it will bend and deform and is often not tough enough to force the desired flake off. Since iron, steel, brass are hard they tend to crush rather than flake as there is no real amount of force returned to them when a flake attempt is tried. Horse shoe nails are used primarily for notching and edge finishing where you are only attempting small prescribed flakes. Cross country power lines use hard drawn copper wire as well as deep well drillers often use it for down the hole current! You can change the hardness of soft drawn copper by twisting, stretching as with copper tubing, or pounding the ends on a hard surface. The copper wire used in the old days on power poles for ground wire is often hard drawn and is an excellent source of good useable copper. In the 50s I used lots of antler, horn, fire harden wood and stone and all were readily available on the ranch where I lived. Now that I am old and have lost a lot of wrist strength, I have gone to copper ended Ishi sticks for the advantage they provide. Any way you can carve out a useable blade be it a small projectile or a big skinner is very satisfying and I hope you find this knapping journey one of obsession and pleasure. A/Ho Pokie
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I was going to ask about brass. Some truck rear ends have 4 large brass pins in them. We use them as drives because they won't mar other metals. I was wondering if some of my knapping friends could use them or not. I have a couple already saved but if there not useable for knapping I wont save them. Heavy little suckers.
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Hey Bear I thought I was the only one who rooted around in truck rearends I got probably a hundred of those brass pins about 1.5 in diameter and 4.00 long. Ron
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Save them anyway Bear,We can use them in our knife work,butt plates and such. I use to have a bunch of them back in the day and also used them as drifts. :)
Pappy
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I use to buld them for a living 40 or so years ago. :) :)
Pappy
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I was going to try pounding some brass flat and grind them into broadheads. Didn't the Egyptions and Romans use brass points and blades?
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I was going to try pounding some brass flat and grind them into broadheads. Didn't the Egyptions and Romans use brass points and blades?
What an insult....man has coral and wants to pound brass for broadheads ::) lol
I'm not sure if they used straight copper, but Id imagine it was used somewhere along the lines when it was discovered.
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Great info and thanks for all the answers Jeff, Sailordad, and Wolf. This is why I like coming here when people know they have solid knowledge to pass on and if people aren't sure you get some good guesses that are worth a try.
I made a few things to start off with to see what I like
- copper boppers 1", 3/4", 1/2" and one thats about 1 1/2" out of a moose horn
- pressure flaker and ishi stick from 8 gauge copper wire
- leather pad and an old road bike tire I cut up and glued together to make a rubber one about 1" thick
- old rough sharpening stone to abrade with (not sure how this will work)
There's a start also have some obsidian I've had stashed in my garage and what I think is Pedernales not heat treated and some heat treated Pedernales on the way. I hope I'm no good at it cause I really don't need to have another addiction, but I keep seeing such nice work on here I have to try it.
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michael, your probably gonna find out that the moose billet will work better on the obsidion
the copper will work too
i just find that antler works better on the softer material i.e. obsidion,dacite,novaculite and such
how heavy is your moose billet?
weight is the key factor with these,not so much the size(thats what i was told when i bought mine)
my moose billets and whitetail tines are about all i use now
unless im hitting real hard stuff
not sure how much quiker the antler will wear on the harder stuff
not upto finding out either,i paid good money for my moose billets so i am not destroying them on the hard stuff
besides i have several differant copper boppers and paddles that realy beat the snot out of the hard stuff
have fun ;)
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Thanks for the advice I will have to have one of the ladies in the mail room weigh it for me. I found one of the guys that goes to the cornstalk shoots has been knapping for about 15 years. He said he would be more than happy to give me advice, take me with him sometime to look for rock and help me with cooking any rock I might find on my own. I'll post some pics once I get to chipping, probably tonight sometime we are about to go on a hike with the kids.
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Mike, Brass is a shade too hard. Yes indeed, save those brass pins! Like Pappy said, you can make hilts, pommels, inlays, etc. out of them. You can melt them down, and cast things out of them also. ;) I believe the Egyptians, and Roman, used whatever they had before they got the bronze formula down. I think bronze is a mixture of copper, zinc and tin, so it is quite a bit harder than brass. It can take an edge that is quite sharp. On The History channel they showed the tombs of the Han Dynasty, where they found bronze sword blades, that will shave you ! You can alter the color and softness of brass by adding more, or less of the zinc to the copper. There was a jewelry brass that was popular for a short while, I think it was called Merlin's gold, that looked like gold, and did not tarnish quite as bad as regular brass, and it had more zinc in it. 8) I was thinking about trying to melt some copper with some brass, and try to see if I could get a recipe that would be harder than pure copper, but not as hard as brass. I will have to give that a go some time. But yeah, don't throw those pins away. Uh.....the post office has these boxes, that if it will fit, you pay a flat rate....... ::) ;D When I used to go to the range, I would pick up discarded brass that was Berdan primed, and keep them to melt down, and cast stuff with. Just be sure that the primer has been fired, or better yet remove them, before you melt them!!! The amount of primer powder, in a large rifle, shell is the same amount, and the same composition, that is in your airbag explosive capsule. It can be very dangerous. I read an article in a reloading book, about a guy that was annealing his rifle shells, before resizing them, and there was a shell with a live primer in it, and it went off, and he felt the primer hit his chest, and noticed a small amount of blood on his chest, but did not see the primer on the floor. It started to hurt a little more. He went in to have it checked out, and he now has a primer next to his heart ! :o The early ancestors did quite amazing feats of craftsmanship, and artistry with hammer stones, and antlers, long before copper. Just look at some of the coral points, and blades, that are so thin, and perfect! 8) I still use copper, but I would like to progress to totally primitive tools, just so I could be able to do like our ancestors did. I would still look for the easiest way though...... ;D
Wayne
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Well the moose billet I have weighs about 17 oz but it needs some shaving so I will say about 16 to 16.5 oz after.
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What about drilling a hole in the end, and pouring moulten lead in it?
Wayne
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Well the moose billet I have weighs about 17 oz but it needs some shaving so I will say about 16 to 16.5 oz after.
perfect size,mine is right at 1lb .5 oz
it works great,i wouldnt fill it with lead
if you were to do that,you might as well just use a lead filled copper pipe
the moose billet will work fine with out any extra weight
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How hot does it need to be to melt copper? I have not been able to find copper caps to make my bi lit out of, and unless I shoot a buck with big base on his horn I am out of business with palling rocks for a while. :-[ Wish we had moose around here. The conservation department is talking about releasing elk here .maybe I could hunt me one of those down. >:D
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Maddog, I forgot how hot it has to be to melt copper, but it is pretty hot. More than 1200, or 1400 degrees, I believe. As for hunting Elk, I hope you get to, but if they do release them in your hunting area, just search for sheds. ;)
Wayne
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Thanks, I used to live in Wyoming on a ranch, but never hunted until I moved to Missouri. :-\ I look back on all the times I had elk stand up under my horse when I would ride through buck brush and all the sheds I would find and not have the chance to collect and it makes me sad.