Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: half eye on October 20, 2010, 12:13:53 pm
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Hey fellas,
Here's the latest in the "great experiment". The first 2 self bows were Walnut self bows and were symetrical in tiller. The only difference was that #2 had about 5-8 degrees more reflex in the lever fades. The next step for me was this version which has the asymetrical Hunnic influence to see if there was any performance increase.....so here's that bow.
Stats: 49" bow, 50# @ 27" and 53+# @ 28".
Red Elm, self bow
upper limb bends more than the lower at brace....evens out somewhat at draw but the bow takes on a "tilted forward" attitude
in the hand
Bow draws very smoothly all the way to 28" (no pinch or stack) and is well mannered.
Has a very little more speed but the cast suffers from the necessary high brace.....but at 20 yards it has plenty of both for
hunting.
Will start the pic posts with the museum drawing of the original syle, followed by bow #3....then some braced and draw pics of #1 and #2 for comparison. I feel that the style of #1 & 2 are the better design because they are nearly equal in speed, but have better cast and are easier to make and tiller.
Hope ya like the experiment so far.
rich
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Pics of #2 (first) and then #1 (last)
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That's awesome the amount of bend you got in that first one. Looks great! :)
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Great stuff as always.
Del
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Nice of you to share your experiments, Rich. I have a Red Elm D bow right now that I'm trying to decide if I like or not. Seems like it shoots slow for the pounds that it pulls. I think it bends too much in the handle.
CP
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Very informative stuf. Your have great talent sir. thx for sharing
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The bend in the first is nearly shocking me, Rich! Very interesting profile.
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Love to see your work and gleam the information you share. Outstanding as always.
Thanks,
Jeff
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Nice! Looks very fast. We couldn't get a front profile pic, could we? :)
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very nice and very short for that draw 8)
but the Möllegabet-Style is one of the fastest for selfbows.
I like them.
Greetz
Cord
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excellent work as always , im still giving the walnut one hell. very nice full draw, amazing and awesome to see the shorties come full draw and survive !!
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Thanks fellas for the encouragement.
Josh@ since I've been using a lot of walnut and red (slippery) elm I've found that both woods will bend a whole lot, without too much set....think hickory would work even better
Parnell@ I believe that the asymetry was for horseback use, much like the Umi. But for ground pounders like me, I think that symetrical bending short to medium bows are better....JMO
Toomany@ will get one of those tomorrow when the sun's up
Bambule@, I agree 100% thats why I'm such a big fan. I believe that I have settled on a "best-form" for my personal bows. Building one now and will have it done in a couple of days. It a basic Mollegabet with the levers bent forward about 10 degrees. ( pre load the string at low brace. Also I found that if you want short bows/full draw it helps to steam defelex the working limbs (about 1 to 1-1/2 inches) but for the Mollegabets above about 50/52 inches it is not necessary....JMO
Thanks Ken, was just to see what if.....decided I'm sticking with symetrical tillers for all my bows
Cacatch,Del, Legionnaire@ Thanks fellas
Jeff@ Thanks buddy
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Great work!!!! The thing that you have caught onto that many of the so called "experts" in Eurasian design is that if the siyahs are long the limb needs to be shorter otherwise you get a slow bow with a pretty large bit of hand shock. Another thing about the larger siyahs the whole idea of "Asian" bows are only able to achieve higher speeds with a light arrow goes right out the window. These bows with the bigger siyahs throughout history threw a heavy war/hunting arrow with authority. Thanks for sharing your work. BRAVO!!!!
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Excellent dude!!You beat me to the punch on that one!! >:D I got one in the works i think your gonna like.its elm as well.i was wondering if that upper limb would affect cast and apperently so.Good job and cant wait to see what you pop off next!! ;)
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Rich
You continue to amaze me! First, you completely sell me on the molle's and then show me this...Wow...I want a build-a-long!
You need to write that book! Every time you post, I am inspired. Sir...You got the gift...DO NOT STOP!God bless ya Rich.
Thanks for the knowledge
Ron
Molle Freak....or just plaino okie/native american/viking/asian bow lover ;D....Can't decide what style I love the best :-\ AAhh Hell...I love em all!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
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Good looking bow Rich,lots of bend for such a short bow. :)
Pappy
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Toomany@ here's that "headon shot"....all the bows have the same plan view so this pic would look the same for all 3 bows
Pappy, Okie@ thanks fellas, means a lot.
rich
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you do amazing work man.. by the way i got some leather we could make ya a longer belt if ya need
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dont really need no leather......but ya could go ahead and make some biscuits and gravy ;D
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Yes, that is an absolutely wicked bow. Thanks for the front profile pic, very nice looking bow. You should start chrono these guys one of these days! To do the math; Shorter bows = faster bows + mollegabet bows = faster bows, ...so..., short + molly = fastest bows? :)
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Toomany,
I dont know if it is that simple. The long levers/siyah's give the cast and speed......but if ya "flip" the lever angle forward it has to be a low angle (no more than 30 degrees).....that keeps the brace height low and improves cast because of the longer power stroke.
If ya go short with a self bow ya would need a little deflex in the working limbs to aid in the full draw length.....that ups the brace height and reduces the cast (speed would still be there though). Having said that my experiments have shown me that the levers have to be long in either case because of the mechanical advantage gives great performance even at moderate draw weight. But, there has to be some limit on how long ya can go without hurtin something else.....haven't figured that out yet.
Like ya said though the design (mollegabet) gives really good performance and manners so you are pretty much good on that idea that short to moderate mollegabets with a couple of tweeks is gonna give a damned fine bow, for sure.
rich
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Really awesome .You sure get some great bend out if those shorties and with little stacking?I am gonna have to try that is the elm quarter sawn?Anyways like your work-Hammertime
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Those look good Rich. Got to put one of those on my to do list.
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Damn, just got a Ottawa bow under my belt and now I'm going to have to learn the ins and outs of Mollegabets. Thanks for posting Halfeye. I second the idea of you compiling your experiments into a book.
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Very nice bow, half eye. Use it in good health. Jawge
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" I dont know if it is that simple. The long levers/siyah's give the cast and speed......but if ya "flip" the lever angle forward it has to be a low angle (no more than 30 degrees).....that keeps the brace height low and improves cast because of the longer power stroke."
Now your really learning me something! Ya ever thought of carving into the sides of the siyahs, with some sort of design, or pattern? Maybe a dragon? (You can tell I have admired some of your past work, :) )
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Thanks again fellas,
Before I answer ya fellas thought I'd show you that all the experiments dont good perfect. Added some pics of a decrowned ash with walnut backer, and even tiller.....it WAS real pretty but decide to "fold" at about shot 250 or so. It did not break clean through just sort of folded.... but hey I now know that 1-1/2" limbs on a stave Mollegabet dont work......figured if I was gonna share, it might as well be everything, including the failures.
Hammertime...Ya it's fully quartersawed...no backer. I believe that the long levers are what keeps the low sting angle.
Lombard / Grunt...the design is really easier than a longer bow design, cause ya only got to tiller in 1/2 a limb....only tricky part is making sure the limbs are the same thickness from side to side
Thanks, George....probably going to give it away, cause I just cant get used to the asymetric tiller.
Toomany,....I know I could shave some off the side of the levers without hurting the mechanical stability any so some shallow carving on the lever sides should not be any issue at all.....have to throw that into the experiment.
Thanks Scott, it's the long evers and short working limbs .....puts the fulcrum near the grip so the string angle seems to stay pretty consistant even at the longer draws.
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Broken bow, I hate it when that happens.
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Read an interesting post on making the levers scalloped on the sides to look like an I beam so as they retain the stiffness but shed some weight or holes cot through in places to reduce weight. I figure you to be the man to test it so what do you think Guru ?
Jeff
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Lombard...all part of the process, I guess. No big deal long as I get some knowlege at the autopsy :)
Jeff....you my friend are very bad, I-beams and holes? that gets a mental picture going that is probably gonna get me into trouble.
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I'm looking at the limb proportions. Is a good rule of thumb 2/5 levers 3/5 working limb?
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I love these bows but the old speed versus cast argument still doesn't make much sense. Speed is cast, all other things being equal.
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hey fellas,
Grunt....the limbs are equally divided on these what makes it look different is that the bottom of the lever fade is part of the lever (non bending) but it appears the levers start where they get skinny......but I lay them out equal 1/2's and the lever fade goes above the line.
PatM.....speed and cast would be the same, if everything was equal. I'm differentiating between a high brace 50# shooting 500 grain arrows versus a 50#, low brace shooting 700-800 grain arrows. If both of those arrows leave the bow at realitively the same speed then the heavy arrow has more momemtum (cast). The greater weight (with the same launch velocity) will travel a farther distance. So when I shoot these bows down a long field I have noticed the same bow firing 500 grain arrows and 700 grain arrows if the design is efficeiently transferring energy the heavier arrows will often time fly farther than the lighter ones do....The bow is also quieter in the firing sequence because more energy is being transfered to the projectile. So while the two arrows may leave at about the same velocity the heavier arrow can still travel farther because of the sheer momentum that it has.
Dont know if I explained it right but I do believe there is an efficiency quotient in the mix that does make cast (distance traveled) different from speed (velocity of the missle). But that don't make my 2 cents worth anymore than anybody else's It is simply stating my thought process in judging weather or not my bows are efficient.....and why I put more weight on "distance traveled" than I do on launch velocity.
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You would have to prove that with a multiple chrono test and then a series of flight shots. The fact that one bow has a lower brace height changes the energy storage more than the bow design. If the bows were both shooting at exactly the same initial velocity then the point would be valid but I think the bow shooting the heavier arrow would also have a faster initial velocity which would expalin the farther shots.
It would be worth batting these ideas around on the flight forum on Paleoplanet. Lots of theories and practical testing on arrow weight, velocity, distance etc. on there.
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These bows are cool! But man those inner limbs are so tortured I can't imagine these bows would have the same lifespan as a normal well tillered flat bow. What do you guys think?
dan
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"Now I see" said the blindman. Thanks for explaining the limb layout. This is one of the great things about this site, we share knowledge.
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Bowmo these are some tough bows and I dont think the limbs are any more tortured than on a regular bow.Mines holdin fine and its had alot of arrows put through it and multiple items dropped on it from treestand.JMO