Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: chuckp on August 07, 2010, 03:39:16 pm
-
Are there any real good alternatives to sinew as a backing?
A material that would have sinews stretching and strength characteristics?
I don't want to re-invent the wheel, but I'd like know if a readily available substitute is out there.
-
Good Bamboo? I don't know never done a sinew backed bow but from what I understand it's in a league of it's own. There are plenty of options for backing a bow but I don't think any of them have all the properties of sinew.
-
Nothing can compete with sinew as far as I know. It is in a league of it's own.
-
Fiberglass was invented to do what sinew and hide glue does....but they have yet to find something that shrinks up and pre-stresses like sinew. So, no, there is no equivalent.
-
At one time silk was advocated, but it has to be stretched before gluing:
http://books.google.com/books?id=oScDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA140&dq=silk%20backing%20for%20bows%20popular&pg=PA140#v=onepage&q&f=false
-
Thats pretty slick Will...I even bookmarked that site!
-
i agree its pretty cool to read some of those old articles. that arrow looks about an inch short though.
-
Sinew is kind of unique in that it's chemically similar to the animal glue that's used to hold it down (sinew makes good glue too). Animal glue and sinew polymerise at a molecular level and fuse together (if cured for long enough, they become one - Turkish flight bows were often left for three years to cure). Because sinew is laid down wet it will also conform to the back of the bow, unlike a hard backing. The natural shrinkage whilst curing will also pull the bow into reflex, which is good for early draw weight and arrow speed.
Having said that, there's probably little point in laying sinew on a bow over 60 inches or so because it's heavy and will diminish performance. Short bows require a greater skill to hit the target, too.
I do love making bows with it though
Dylan
-
Denny mears. or Half eye would be the guys to answer this question. I know Denny uses elk hide at times for backing. Which is something I have never done. So I'm not really sure of it's properties as far as stretching and tightening go.
However I think he use's it for a reason other then cosmetic.
Halfeye. could probably back a bow with anything and make it look awesome and perform well. lol
-
Has any of you tried artificial sinew? Would it even be worth trying?
-
Profsaffel- not as a backing- not any of the same characteristics ;)
-
But under certain circumstances it looks like sinew. So you can have all the attitude, look, and style, but without the problems of all that nasty stuff called "performance".
-
But under certain circumstances it looks like sinew. So you can have all the attitude, look, and style, but without the problems of all that nasty stuff called "performance".
ive never thougth it looked like sinew
i can always tell when someone uses that fake crap
-
Artificial Sinew is just Glorified Waxed Dental Floss....period.........JMO
-
Ok, so how 'bout backing a bow with waxed dental floss... just kidding.
Yeah, I knew there had to be a few reasons why no one was bringing that up, but I thought this thread was as good as any to ask if any of you had even thought to try artificial. Carry on, carry on.
-
Nate pretty much summed it up. There are plenty of alternatives, but no substitutes. You can find backings that are stronger in tension than sinew, but they still aren't the same. The funny part is a lot of people don't soak the sinew long enough to get the full benefits of sinew. If you have ever dried your own sinew you have seen how much it shrinks when it dries. But a lot of people just barely get it wet again and throw on.
Silk is a great backing, but it would be real difficult to attach it pre stressed to a bow with any kind of character or even a recurve or deflex reflex. The fact that sinew stresses itself as it cures is a good portion of what makes it so cool.
-
How about bow length and sinew? Will say a 66-72" bow not reap any of sinews benefits? Does sinew become counter-productive with longer bows?
-
Yes! Sinew and hide glue weigh more than most woods so you are adding physical weight to the limbs and at the longer lengths you aren't using the full potential of the sinew. On shorter bows where the sinew is stretched well at full draw the extra physical weight is negated by the performance of the sinew.
-
I have used Hemp...Jute....and Flax ...with some good results...but I don't see a way that you could get the Artificial Sinew to even glue down and stay...not being waxed...I guess you could take Acetone and cut the wax out of the Fibers...but why bother....oh ...and none of these fibers I mentioned...hold a candle to Sinew.... ;)
-
"Will say a 66-72" bow not reap any of sinews benefits?"
I used to dream of making a killer Osage ELB with sinew backing and having the world's fastest bow. Then someone explained to me by drawing a picture of a short bow pulled 27" and long bow polled the same length. (Or maybe they showed me the picture in The Traditional Bowyers Bible, I can't remember) The shorter bow has to move it's limbs into a much steeper bend to acheive the same draw length, consequently it "Loads" up more. On the longbow, it really isn't doing any work at all, it's just freeloading.
But if you put on a really really really thin layer as an insurance backing it wouldn't detract much from the performance while preventing splinters from lifting. But you could use antelope rawhide, which is tougher than steel and just a bit thicker than cigarette paper to do the same job. Ultimately, save your sinew for a shorty bow that will be so fast it will burn the feathers off your arrows!
-
Artificial sinew is just nylon thread with wax on it. Even if you took the wax off, it would still be just nylon thread. It would probably help protect the back of a bow, but it wouldn't pull into reflex or enhance the performance of a bow like real sinew.
-
Dental Floss....see I told Ya........ :P
I Might Be Moving To Montana Soon....Gunna Be A Dental Floss Tycoon........... >:D
Now that last one really shows my Age........... ;D
-
;D
-
It took me a long time and a lot of experimenting but when I want to imitate the look and properties of sinew I use tan-colored poly/cotton sewing thread. It can be glued down with animal glue, titebond, etc.
The thread stretches (and snaps back) but it will not shrink like sinew does. However, if you glue it down with animal glue it will shrink somewhat due to the shrinking of the animal glue ...and will create a little bit of reflex if you back a bow with it. I have two bows backed with fish glue and poly/cotton thread and they work very well. The are not as "snappy" as sinew backed bows but I can hardly tell the difference. IMO
The thread has a polyester fiber core that is wrapped with cotton. The polyester stretches and the cotton wrapping allows it to be glued down (most glue doesn't stick well to polyester).
You can imitate the look of sinew, for hafting arrowheads and such, by applying the threads in a three or four strand bundle. Make sure the threads lie flat and are not twisted. The beauty of this is that the thread can be cut to any length you want.
-
Patrick....You of all People...Cheating....Man I would have never expected this from You....I am Hurt.......... :'(
Ya want to go into Business? We can Start a Dental Floss Farm.......... >:D
-
How do you grow dental floss? Wait....I don't want to know.... ;)
-
Forgot how Young you were....you probably never listened to Frank Zappa..... ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlntX_iMg5g&feature=fvw
-
How does rawhide compare to sinew? Is is more for protection than performance? Does it stretch if soaked in water?
And who in the heck is Frank Zappa? ???
-
whoooooo...there I'm ok now....a flashback El Destructo!
I am very interested in this because of the juniper bow I am making. Do you soak the sinew for several hours before using it?
-
Mike that is so old school
i cant remember(probably with good reason ;) ;D )the last time i heard that song
man thats way back from "in the day"
a wednesday i beleive it was
-
The only backing I've done so far has been with burlap. Seems like burlap isn't on the preferred list because of its weight. I wonder if anyone has actually chronographed velocity of bows shot with different backings vs. unbacked bows.
I do understand the pluses of sinew, how it can prevent set and increase speed, but when applied to a bow in the 66"-72" range, many say it cancels out itself out by adding weight to the limbs. Again, is the speed decrease so much as to rule out it's merits?
-
Wow, that would be a great idea. If someone could build a bow and then apply a backing with hide glue so it could be removed and then another backing applied, and so on, testing and recording information with each one. There would be some valuable information.
-
How does rawhide compare to sinew? Is is more for protection than performance? Does it stretch if soaked in water?
Rawhide is the equal of sinew for backing a bow to prevent splinters from lifting, but it does not add any draw weight to the bow, nor does it improve the speed of the bow. Yup, sheer protection. And yes, it does stretch when soaked in water, but it also will take up a huge variety of finishes to make it water resistant.
-
Does the rawhide prevent splinters from lifting or is it the glue that coats the bows back when applying the rawhide.
Wouldn't burlap do the same job as rawhide, but maybe adding a bit more weight?
-
Does the rawhide prevent splinters from lifting or is it the glue that coats the bows back when applying the rawhide.
Wouldn't burlap do the same job as rawhide, but maybe adding a bit more weight?
The glue isn't what protects the bow. To compare burlap and rawhide you have to know the thickness of each. Whichever is harder to tear will do a better job of holding down splinters.
-
burlap is a decent material for backing but its not really one i like very much. for one reason there are gaps in the weave, which leads me to believe that pressure would be distributed oddly. rawhide is fairly uniform, and a more consistent area, which is about ideal for what you really want in a protective backing, where grain isnt exactly continuous/uniform.