Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Orkraider on March 26, 2010, 06:49:05 am
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I'm getting ready to make another bow, and I want to try and start off on the right foot with this one.
I'd like to end up with something in the 75 - 80 pound range, at a 28" draw.
I also want to stick with red oak board as material for this one, it's cheap, readily available, and I'm trying to get a feel for working with this wood before I move on to something else.
I'm planning on a cloth backing once again, either linen, burlap, or silk.
I don't have any volumes of TBB yet, so I'm having to glean what info I can elsewhere.
Based on what Jawge and some others said about my last build, I'm thinking of doing 3" wide (actual), and 78" long.
What I'd like to do, and what I will do if I don't hear about a better way of calculating actual size, is start with a 3" wide 78" long board, lay out the handle area, do a straight taper from the fades to the tips, rough it out, and start tillering.
I've read through some of Badgers posts regarding the mass principle, which makes really good sense, but I can't quite seem to figure how to take those ideas and translate them into figuring out rough dimensions based on desired draw weight and length.
Any tips, advice, links, etc. are appreciated, and I will be posting pictures as I go along.
Thanks!
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sorry but i dont have any experience with red oak over 55lbs ;D That is gonna be a heck of a bow if it survives though!! lol
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The dimensions you have seem pretty close to what you'd need. I built a Flatbow from red oak at 80# @ about 26", 72" long and 2 1/4" wide to midlimb... it blew up when I was shooting it. I think it survived 25 shots. I've since stopped trying to get anything more than 60# from red oak boards. However, there have been a number of successful D bows drawing over 70#, I did one 70" long, about 1 1/2" wide between the mid limbs, drawing about 74#, and others have built them drawing over 80#.
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A 3" wide pyramid bow is a lot of work, especially for a high poundage. A Meare Heath design might be a tad simpler although it won't perform as well.
If you chase a ring on a plain sawn board you wouldn't need a backing. Otherwise I'd go with the thickest linen you can find.
I've never gone heavier than 65# on red oak, but I've never backed it either.
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O.K. I'll ask. Why 75#? and that is a lot to ask from red oak.
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O.K. I'll ask. Why 75#? and that is a lot to ask from red oak.
i did hear someone say on the long bow forums that a properly designed bow pulling 100# is under equal or less stress than a childs bow. idk if this was BS but i suppose it could be applied here, mainly emphasizing the amount of wood that is going into this bow is going to need to be above the average dimensions for a red oak to compensate for the extra weight. which obviously he has done his gazentas on. Like I said, that'll me a heck of a "monster" bow if it survives ;D. 3 wide by 78" will be one of the biggest bows ive seen. Ty
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Ok, a lot of awesome replies, and Kegan, I'm especially glad to hear from you, I've seen a lot of good posts from you regarding bows I want to shoot in the weights I want to mess about with ;-)
As far as "why 75#"; when I decided back last July that I wanted to get into this, one of the goals I set myself was some day being able to make and draw something resembling a warbow. Ideally, I'd like to get up to a 150# draw, but that's a ways off; I don't have weights, or money for a gym membership, and I'm only slowly starting to get some motivation to work out.
But shooting arrows hits me in my FUN spot, and I've found myself doing it 'til my arms are sore, so it's a really good fit for me as far as that goes.
As far as why, my previous experience with weapons comes from my time in the army reserve, I as an infantryman for 3 years, and a forward observer with a FIST team for another 3. So I'm fascinated by the ability of a given weapon to reach out and touch someone, hard, from a distance.
Now that I've seen how much fun bows in general are, and after a lot of talking to people I've met, It's very likely that I'm going to go deer hunting with a bow, if I get myself to a proficiency level that I feel good about. I've never hunted before, but I think I'd like to try it, and I'm one of those people who would eat and/or use every last bit of the deer, from the tail to the nose.
So, my current bow is just over #70 or so, I want to make my next one better, shooting for 75# or a touch more; the one after that will prolly be #80 and so on.
Red oak, well, I liked working with it on the 2 bows I've done so far, it's cheap and readily available.
I do understand that this might very well not work; but I'm curious as to what dimensions I should be going for in the attempt. Even more, I'd like to figure out HOW to get the dimensions.
What I'd really like is a program that let me plug in a bow type, draw length, and draw weight, and then spit out some numbers like "It has to be 8 foot long, 5 inches wide, and made out of balsa", for example.
This ended up being a super long post; if you make it this far, thank you!
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I see Aries replied while I was writing my novel length post;
I had got some feedback that a red oak board bow needed to be wider and longer to have a chance of hitting that draw weight, from Jawge, and I always try and put his advice on the very top of the "llisten to this well" pile.
Now, my goal isn't to make a big huge monster bow, so I can say, "look how cool I am with my big huge monster size things, wink, wink", lol, but at the same time, if that's what it takes to make the type and kind of bow I want, I can hang with that.
And I don't mind people staring at me as I bus to the archery range. 8-)
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I'd say give it a shot :). At 78"x 3", you're sure to have enough bend to reach weight (especially if you managed to get a successful 70#er like you did :)). With higher weights, starting wider is the safest bet (hard to tiller when they get too wide, but still). Going long and wide should really help you out, and a backing should make it very possible. Actually, if you're going a full 3" wide and backed, you might be able to get away with a 74" or so long bow.
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well alrighty then, I'm a go for it.
I'm hitting menards to pick up some other stuff tomorrow, and I reckon I might pick up a board for that bow while I"m at it.
Also making me some new arrows, now that I finally found a place near me that sells cheap field points. woohoo!
Thanks for the feedback, all!
Riley, Saint Paul, MN
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The problem you are going to have with red oak 3/4" thick at that weight is that the handle will flex too much unless you come down to about 72". I made a 100# red oak 72" long 1 1/2" wide that was bend through the handle. for a stiff handle i would say 72" long and about 2 1/2" wide.for a pyramid with a circular tiller and stiff handle, but even at that the hanle will likley flex too much too hold a build up if you narrow it beyond about 1 1/2" wide. Steve
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Hey, Badger, I was really glad to see a reply from you, I know you're really on top of this stuff; I found your mass principle stuff to be fascinating, although I'm still trying to digest it.
Let me back up a little bit.. Do you think it's possible to do a 75# red oak self bow with a stiff handle, using a 3/4 inch board? If so, what type and dimensions would you suggest?
I'm feeling my beer a little, so I'm gonna come back and check this in the a.m. Cheers!
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If I were going to do it i would look for the densest piece of red oak I could find. The handle is going to be the big challenege, at 3/4" thick it will want to bend, the longer you go the more it wants to bend. I would go 66" long 2 1/2 at the fades and straight pyramid to 1/2" TIPS. Get the bow bending just a little bit and then weigh the bow. at the length I gave you about 26 oz is what you will be looking for so if it is just starting to flex a bit and the weight is around 29 oz or so you will probably be good at those demensions. Steve
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Thanks very much for this info, Badger, it's very helpful and valuable to me.
One thing I'm not quite clear on, when you talk about it flexing in the handle with a 3/4 " board, are we both thinking that I'm going to be gluing on a handle piece?
It was my thought that I would be, the designs I've found so far all have a glued on handle piece.
Is it still going to most likely flex too much in this area, or are we talking about going without a glued on handle?
I'm asking for clarification, as having numbers from you to work with on this project are very very useful to me. I'm not even close to being able to make these calculations myself yet, so I'm really glad you're willing to chat about it. With what you're giving me to work with, I'm going to be buying wood today.
I can't wait til I can get me the boywers bible books. =)
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Oak, if you glue on a handle piece and it flexes the handle will pop off. Thats the biggest problem with heavyweight bows from 3/4 stock. Steve
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What about gluing a handle to the belly side of the D bow? Will that prevent it from popping off?
Or adding a tied on hand-filler of folded leather to the belly side?
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Hmmm, I can see where the whole popping off thing might be an issue.
At this point, I'm in a quandry; I want to do 2 things that might not be compatible.
I want to make a pyramid bow with a reasonable chance of success, and I want to make a 75# bow.
I'm going to the store today to buy some wood, maybe I'll buy enough for 2 bows. Then I can start on the 75#, and if it doesn't work out, I can jump right in to a lower weight that's more likely to work.
The more I read, the more likely it seems that for the higher weight bows I want to make, I'll need to go beyond stiff handled red oak selfbows.
after I take a stab at todays project, I reckon next will be a bend through the handle longbow. I've seen Jawge suggest that a bajillion times, so it's got to be a good idea.
After that, I might have to start messing with some of that fancy "laminating" you all talk about.
Doing that stuff might be hard without a table saw, tho. =)
Once I get to building this pyramid bow, I'll be posting pics as I go.
Thanks again to everyone, this place is the best.
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I agree that you should probably get away from hardware store 3/4" lumber, if you want heavier bows. Do you have a band saw at least, or are you chopping out the front profile? Either way works. Check online and in the phone book for hardwood suppliers. There should be some in your locality. I was hard up for good wood in Alaska, but the local hardwood supplier had nice clear 5/4 rough sawn Hickory and White Oak boards, for a reasonable price. The advantage of buying rough sawn lumber, over planed, is you get the full advertised dimension, ie: a 1" board is 1" thick, not 3/4" and a 5/4" board is 1 1/4" thick, not 1 1/8".
On a different note, where have you been stationed? I've been at Ft. Drum, Ft. Wainwright, Ft. Irwin, and now back at Drum. I've worked in Armament Maintenance the whole time, since '98, so my preocupation with bows stems from a broader mental disorder, mainly my preocupation with anything that fires a projectile of some sort ;) Now i'm just waiting for my latest sunny Middle Eastern vacation to end, so I can get back to my family and make som new bows for my 3 boys. (Can't seem to convince Mommy that she needs one too)
Good Luck,
Jude (AKA Chief Benoit)
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Hey, Jude. (couldn't resist)
I don't have a bandsaw, or a table saw. So far, I've been laying out the dimensions in pen or pencil, then taking wood of with my trusty stanley surform.
I do actually have a wicked cool table saw, a solid metal behemoth, but I need to scrounge up a motor for it; that's another work in progress.
I was originally planning on hitting menards today to see what they had, but it was a nice day, so I said screw it, and hit the range by the lake instead. It was awesome.
I bumped into a guy and his 3 sons shooting their compounds, and they were all oohing and ahing over my board bow and ghetto arrows. What a boost to my ego, lol.
I did bump into my landlord on the way out, and he gave me an address for a wood supplier he deals with. He says they have everything, in any dimension, and will cut to order, and that it's dirt cheap. I'm pretty excited, that's gonna be my destination on my next day off.
As far as where I was stationed, I was a "civilian soldier" or "weekend warrior"; never did any active duty, just the reserves. Bootcamp at Fort Benning, Georgia, where I learned the fine art of the 11 Bravo, then after 3 years of that I switched to 13 foxtrot, forward observer with a Fist team. Spent time just up the river from my house at Fort Snelling, also Fort Mccoy, and Camp Ripley.
I never had to go anywhere sandy, for which I'm greatful; thanks for serving, and I hope you make it back.
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Okay, I'm finally starting this bow after a long delay. The weather here has gotten really decent, and any time I've had after work and home has been spent heading out to the archery range rather than making a new bow.
I just got back from Menards (local warehouse style hardware store), and I picked up a 1" by 3" by 6' piece of red oak. It's solid, no knots, and the grain looks like it runs right along the length of the board without running off.
I'm shooting for the dimensions Badger gave me, i.e. 66" long, 2 1/2 inch wide at the fades, tapering smoothly down to 1/2" wide at the tips.
I have a few questions before I start this bad boy; the biggest one is this:
How do you tiller a pyramid bow? The bits and pieces I've gleaned from the build alongs I've looked at make it sound like it's all side tillering, i.e. wood is removed from the sides of the limbs rather than the belly. This fascinates me, it sounds like it would help make sure you remove any excess mass of wood from the bow; I'm just not sure I have a clear understanding of how this works.
My next question: earlier, I was told that the handle popping off might be an issue. Is there any way I can do some creative joinery to make sure this doesn't happen? Or, perhaps, might my handle wrap help the handle stay on? Perhaps I should make a built up handle out of layers of glued on leather?
Last, what would the downsides be of leaving it at the full length of the board, i.e. 72" instead of 66"? It just seems a shame to have this nice long board and not use the whole thing.
Some other things that have happened during my journey to become an archer, bowyer, and fletcher; I've shot my current bow enough now that my arms are in much better condition. Less shaking and pain has resulted in a Huge increase in accuracy. Also, since I started taking a much deeper hook on my string, my fingers don't hurt when I shoot; I'm getting a small amount of callousing, but all in all, I think I'm going to be able to go without an archers tab, which makes me happy.
One of the biggest things I've noticed is how much fun I'm having. Part of it is the reaction I get from other people. At the ranges I go to, I'm usually the only guy shooting a bow like mine; I get a lot of attention, and it's a great conversation starter with the other shooters. I also get a lot of looks and questions as I travel to and from on the bus. That 6 foot piece of wood does tend to stick out a bit. I've never done anything else that has had so many people say to me "wow, you made that? that is so cool!". That's a power feeling, and I'm getting hooked on it, lol.
Last, but not least, I finally stumbled across the ideal materials for less ghetto looking cases for my tackle (I read that archery gear is properly called 'tackle'). I bought a 10 foot section of 3" corrugated black plastic tubing, it's used for drainage applications. I also got 4 end caps. Total cost: 6 bucks. This will let me have a 6 foot case for my bow, and a 3 foot case for my arrows.
Bah, I do ramble when posting at 1 am. Pictures to come as stuff comes together. peace!
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Hi again,
If you haven't read the Traditional Bowyer's Bible, Vols 1-4, I would highly recommend it, as they get heavily into design principals. As far as the length, there seems to be optimal lengths for bows, in regards to performance and durability, depending on the draw weight and draw length of the design. The optimal length for a 50# straight-limbed, unbacked bow, at 28" draw, whether its a bend through the handle or a stiff handled design, seems to be about 66" nock to nock. Making it longer just robs performance, due to higher limb mass. Making it shorter can lead to stacking, due to bad string angle, and generally will require design adaptations, like recurves and possibly backings, to maintain performance and durability. Warbows are typically longer, 72+", due to their draw length being much longer, and draw weight much higher. If you are going for a heavier bow, as you spoke of earlier, you may want to go longer to take some strain off the neccessarily thicker limbs. Otherwise, you would have to go much wider at the fades, to achieve a bow that takes little set at 80# @ 28"DL /66"N-N. Bear in mind, that bow that's 80# @ 28"DL /70"N-N may not perform any better than a 60# bow that's 66" N-N, because of the added limb mass. I believe that warbows are longer more to compensate for the 32" draw than for the heavy weight. Good luck, and I hope this helps.
Jude
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If you leave the glued on riser section on a little plateau of wood (ie, non-bending) you won't have to worry about it popping off.
As far as tillering a pyramid, here are my thoughts: in theory the profile of a pyramid bow dictates that thickness should be even throughout, thus the idea that you tiller it from the sides. In practice though we know that wood is not isotropic it is orthotropic (experiences different properties in the three mutually perpendicular axes), add to that the fact pin knots, big knots, undulations in graind, etc, etc and the theory starts to fall apart just a little bit. The bottom line is this, and i can only speak from my own experience, i have yet to build a pyramid bow where the thickness is identical throughout the limbs, and i have always done some belly tillering on pyramid bows.
Also, if you leave the first few inches wood just past the fades a bit thicker you will cut down on set in that area. a little bit of set close to the handle looks like a lot of set once you get to the tips.
By the way, i'm in Maple Grove.
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Hey-
I don't know if this style of bow appeals to you but here is a bow that I just finished for my nephew. It has a seperate riser and limbs that are glued and screwed on. He is only six so obviously t does not pull 75# but i think that this riser would be stiff enough for it. A couple of things that I would have done different are get a longer board for the limbs and cut it in half (all but eliminating the need to tiller).
With this bow I used 1/4" x 2.5" red oak for the limbs (got it at Lowe's, I was living out of a hotel at work and needed something to do). To get a higher draw I think that you could potentially laminate two or three layers of this and then put a backing on that.
The riser is made of red oak and poplar (again Lowe's), the entire bow is glued with Gorilla Glue. The nice thing, I thought, was that you might be able to keep the length down. I originally made a 3/4" board bow as you are talking about, it was four feet long and after I shot about two dozen 24" arrows through it broke straight across the limb. That is when I went to the next design This one easily accomodates the 24" arrows I am actually going to recurve it soon with some fast flex bamboo from Rudder Bows. It is also 48" long.
One thing that I think helped is that the limbs being angled back already they are not as stressed when initially braced. I was thinking about doing this myself but am just getting started an a yumi for a friend's wedding. Try it if you like, I have been looking for an excuse to post a pic of this bow as it is only my second ever, and this seemed as good as any. ;)
I will send the pics next thay are on my wife's desk top. (She also did all of the wood burning!)