Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: nclonghunter on March 10, 2010, 11:18:04 am
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I have seen the hardwood inserts for cane arrows that are reduced to a small diameter so it can be inserted into the shaft in what I would call a stair step method. Reducing the diameter in this method looks as if it would greatly weaken the insert "except for a perfect straight on shot" . Any side movement to the shaft would break the insert easily it would seem to me.
I would also suspect that tapering the hardwood insert,(like the end is tapered to glue on a steel practice tip) would be a better insert system than to stair step the insert. Anyone using the stair step insert method or the taper and has had experience with shooting/hunting with it, I would like to know the strengths and weaknesses to it.
I have read were cane arrows are spined then the stiff side is put to the shelf. I also wonder why the stiff side is placed towards the bow rather than the side that spines to match your bow. I have seen a single cane arrow spine from 80# to 50# depending on the side spined. If my bow shoots at 60#, then why would I put the 80# side to the bow? If the arrow must flex around the bow then the 80# side would be too stiff and cause erratic arrow flight or hit off to one side.
If you can help me understand these questions I would appreciate your efforts. I have some cane shafts ready to cut nocks and add inserts and am looking for opinions before I go further...Thanks
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i havent used inserts on mine, so i dont know. but you need to match the spine of the cane to your bow. for yours, id suggest 70# on the stiff side, since cane is usually tapered
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I am not sure what you mean by "stair step" type of insert. But using a solid dowell in the end to plug the cane and then tapering it gives you the same thing as a wood shaft that has been tapered. As for the shooting and hunting with it, a pluged cane shaft will stand much more punishment than wood because of it woven fibers, like carbon, than what a grain run off in wood will hold up to.
Now for the stiff side against the bow? Using the stiff side of the shaft cuts down on paradox, the bending of the shaft, which allows it to recover quicker, therefore straightening up quicker.
Now as to the spine you would need? Lots more variables are needed to know. Whats your total arrow length? What point weight are you using? Is your bow cut for center shot or are you shooting around the bow? And what string material are you using? To get the most out of cane, and to have the most effective arrow, a lot has to be taken into the spine. IMO.
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If you're going to use foreshafts, taper them. Personally I see absolutely no reason to use foreshafts in cane arrows. It's just a weak point and a pain in the butt to get balanced with not much benefit that I can see.
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The "test shafts" I made up were not footed, 30", 50# bow, bare shaft w/o fletch.
Shafts ran from 45# to 75# (@ 28").
Needless to say, some were almost hitting sideways. Never had a issue w/ 145 gr. points and shaft breakage at close range.
I doubt I'll bother to foot any unless it's simply for show (or boredom).
Couple even hit the oak frame (again not so straight on) and they lived.
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Like Hillbilly I see no need to foot a cane shaft. Haft the point directly into the cane, taper it for glue on points and use self nocks in cane.
I did make one footed cane arrow and Wolf Watcher carries it in his quiver. 8)
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Myself and Mechlesher have used them with very good sucess on hogs. The new ones I'm using have very small (1"x 1/4" ) stone points attached are are made to detach on entry. Chris puts his on with super glue. The first hog he killed with one the foreshaft detached, went through the heart and the hog fell over dead in less than 5 yards.
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Like Hillbilly I see no need to foot a cane shaft. Haft the point directly into the cane, taper it for glue on points and use self nocks in cane.
I did make one footed cane arrow and Wolf Watcher carries it in his quiver. 8)
For points I'm having good luck with drilling and Gorila Gluing the screw-ins.
The hollow core acts like a drill guide. Come out straight and concentic pretty easy.
I do wrap the pile end though, no biggie. I practice my rod building that way. ;D
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"I have read were cane arrows are spined then the stiff side is put to the shelf. I also wonder why the stiff side is placed towards the bow rather than the side that spines to match your bow. I have seen a single cane arrow spine from 80# to 50# depending on the side spined. If my bow shoots at 60#, then why would I put the 80# side to the bow? If the arrow must flex around the bow then the 80# side would be too stiff and cause erratic arrow flight or hit off to one side.
Stiff side is the heaviest spine side.
Using 4' I find the heavy spine side, then zone in on the desired spine and mark the center.
Then cut 3" longer on both sides of spine mark.
Rough straighten,, rough grind nodes, straighten, file nodes smooth,, remark spine point and cut to length. Semi-final straighten. Shaft done, all spines w/i 2# and heavy built to window.
I'm considering adding lengths of lead solder to the tails to match the heavies weight to keep them uniform..... maybe next time.
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first off, are you using dowels for foreshafts or nocks? if using for foreshafts, then the joint is suppose to be the weak spot. most people getting into making cane arrows don't understand that the foreshaft is suppose to break off after impact to save the main shaft. "primitive man" figured this out and the reason, it's easier to find a straight piece of wood that is 4" long rather than 28" long. using foreshafted arrows have saved me countless hours of remaking cane shafts that would have been broken had the arrow been a simple shafted arrow. foreshafted arrows DO NOT like glancing blows, they will snap. as they are suppose to. i bounced a foreshafted arrow off a tree one time at a 3d target. the foreshaft stuck in the target but the mainshaft went on its own journey. but to answer your question, the taper method is the best of the two methods of attaching nocks or foreshafts.
to answer your second question. if your bow is 60#, then the stiffest side of your shaft should be 60# and against the shelf so the arrow can deal with the paradoxing . that is if your shooting a 28" shaft and a 125gr. point. if you're using 80# spined arrows, then you need to be shooting 225-250gr point with a 28" shaft. of course, you have to adjust spine for the amount of taper your cane has. if not using this weight point, then chances are your 80# arrows will hit way left. my formula for calculating arrow spine to too complicated to type, but it's usally dead on. hope all this helps.
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i say too bad its too complicated to type mech..
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Chris, I'm 110% with you on most things, but I hate a durn foreshaft, and find them to be worse than useless. I can make a new cane shaft, fletch it, and put a point on it quicker and easier than I can make, taper, and balance a foreshaft. And it don't break every time you shoot it like the foreshaft does. :)
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steve, i'd be the first to admit foreshafts are a first class pain, but i just get a kick out of seeing them work like the ancients designed them to. kind of makes me feel closer to the primitive life style. i also agree that cane shafts are hard as hell to break. i had one of eddie's hogs to fall on a jap boo arrow one time. it bent into a "c" and it still didn't break. the only cane shaft i have had to break is with the hog you helped me find and i think it chewed on it to break it.
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Yeah, and it wasn't really broke, just kinda split. I was pretty impressed with the hog laying on it like that. I guess I'm with the ancients in my neck of the woods-the Cherokee didn't use foreshafts, either. :)
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Hillbilly, that is interesting you mention the Cherokee didn't use fore shafts...I had the understanding that they did, but I'm OK with that.
I have wondered if the fore shaft was primarily used in the larger cane spears as an atlatl. Then, perhaps the fore shaft idea was carried over to the arrow, but it just seems to me that the small diameter needed to make it insert into the end of an arrow makes it too weak and subject to breaking. I will continue mine arrows without using the fore shaft and I appreciate the many ideas and experiences shared here.
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NClonghunter, I have never seen or heard of an old Cherokee arrow with a foreshaft myself, and I've seen quite a few, either in exhibits or in photos and historical drawings. All the ones of cane I've seen had the point directly fastened to the cane shaft. None of the traders or explorers that I've read who lived with or wrote about the Cherokee mention them using foreshafted arrows, either, even when they were describing their bows and arrows in detail, as Adair and Timberlake did. The Cherokee here in western NC still make cane arrows in the old style, no foreshafts. I agree that they make more sense for atlatl darts, I use them myself on darts, but not arrows. Several tribes used them on arrows, especially when they made arrows from fragile stuff like phragmites reed.
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i think there is a drawing in one of the ttbb's that have a some cherokee cane arrows with osage foreshafts.
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As for Cherokee using or not using foreshafts was a individual decision...most Kid arrows did not have foreshaft but hunting and war arrows were mostly foreshafted...I only foreshaft my cane..they DO NOT break after every shot either..some do some don't....my practice shaft has over 60 shots on it in to a foam target ....still as good as the day I made it...foreshafting adds weight up front of your arrow...you WILL get better flight with a foreshafted cane arrow..also it allows a heavier spine shaft because that added weight will reduce your spine back to where you need it..it doesn't take long at all or any trouble to make a foreshaft IMO...it is much harder and more time consuming to make another arrow than a foreshaft....gut
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i think there is a drawing in one of the ttbb's that have a some cherokee cane arrows with osage foreshafts.
Chris, I think that was in the Al Herrin chapter, referring to the western Cherokee in the post-trail-of-tears era. If you look at arrows left from the Cherokee in their original home and culture, they had no foreshafts. The Cherokee that were forced to remove to Oklahoma picked up a lot of stuff from the other tribes they were forced to live with out there, and a lot of their unique culture sadly was lost during that time. Herrin even went so far as to say that he had never seen a two-fletched Cherokee arrow, when pretty much every old Cherokee arrow that still exists was traditionally fletched with the two-feather Eastern Woodlands fletch, which is still used by the Eastern Cherokee today. The Eastern Cherokee still living here where they have lived for hundreds or thousands of years are the descendants of the most traditional, conservative members of the tribe who refused to leave their homeland and go to Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears. They hid out here in the mountains for many years to avoid removal until Col. Will Thomas took up their cause and got permission from the government for the remaining Cherokee to stay here in their homeland, and helped them get started buying up the land which is now the Qualla Boundary (Cherokee reservation.) They kept the traditional Cherokee culture and language alive, as most of them didn't speak English and were hard-core traditionalists. There are people on the Qualla Boundary today who still make bows, arrows, blowguns, pottery, and rivercane double-weave baskets the same way they have been made for centuries. The Western Band have been through so much that their culture has changed a good bit, unfortunately to the point that they almost seem like a different tribe from the Eastern Band.
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Hillbilly, again thanks for the Cherokee info..I have noticed the conflict of the fletching and fore shaft issues on several occasions. You make some good points and it makes sense to me how the confusion has developed. Do you know if the eastern traditional band would have used any steel trade points and what they would have looked like if they did? I am hoping to make a set of arrows with stone points but my add a couple steel ones also.
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I am sure that steel points were probably used as soon as they became available. I have seen several arrow points cut from brass trade kettles that were dug up during archaeological digs at historic Cherokee townsites when Tellico lake was being built. The copper salts in the brass have preserved a couple inches of the foreward ends of the arrows on some of these, and they were sinewed directly into cane shafts. This confims the writing of Henry Timberlake, who lived with the Cherokee for awhile in the mid-1700s, and described their arrow making process at the time as he observed it. He mentions them making points of brass, copper, bone, and garfish scales, and describes how they bound them directly into reed (cane) shafts with deer sinew. James Adair describes them making points from flint, brass, deer antler, and turkey spurs. I have collected a bunch of source material over the years, there's a lot of stuff out there with very detailed descriptions of arrow and bow making written by early English, Spanish, and other explorers and traders. It's pretty interesting reading. There are very detailed descriptions of arrow-making methods, including using cane knives to cut fletching, using knives made from beaver teeth to cut nocks, making glue from hide, sinew, deer antler velvet, and fish, use of pitch and bear grease for arrow finishes, etc. Most of the Florida tribes seemed to have often used wooden foreshafts on cane arrows, as did some of the Creek tribes, and some tribes in eastern Virginia and NC. The Cherokee and Yuchi apparently pretty much never used them. When they were used, it was probably for the reasons Chris said-the foreshaft was designed to break or pull out, leaving the main shaft unharmed.
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I don't do cane. No cane in NH but lost of wild rose. I put the stiff side against the bow. Jawge