Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: Blacktail on March 06, 2010, 06:49:43 pm
-
First off, I wanted to show you that I know how to knap "arrow heads" and what the ideal point would look like but what I am wanting to talk about today is a serious discussion on what a HUNTING point should be. I know a few guys who hunt with actual points they made and they are not fancy heads by any means but they are lethal weapons. I feel that an actual hunting head does not need to have scar flaking across the face, they can just have general shape and a cutting edge. The reason why I am posting this is because last week I made a primitive arrow and the hardest thing for me was hafting the point I have on it. I think there is a difference between someone knapping a point and someone knapping points for actual hunting. What I found out was that 90% of the points that I make are really thick on the base and for hafting they have to be a lot thinner. So in the last two photos I have, I was wondering if this could be considered an actual hunting head (I dont mean by state laws or any of that but in the general sense) It is a small flake and I just put a general shape and a sharp edge and that is really it. The first is my regular arrowhead. I have seen some of Billly's hunting heads but it is hard in a photo sometimes to really see what the head is about. Someday when I get some money I want to get Billy to knock me out a head that he would hunt with so I can use it for my own example. Anyways, what is your opinions and thoughts on this and what do you really think about the last two photos. THanks, John.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/longarrow/DSC_0093-2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/longarrow/DSC_0095.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/longarrow/DSC_0098-1.jpg)
-
The main criteria for a hunting point for me is sharp and straight. Flake scars don't matter, you just don't want a big lump or something that will keep it from penetrating. I want the edges thin and sharp. If I were going to hunt with that one in the last pic, I would do a good bit more edge work on it with a fine-tipped flaker-take those deltas off and give it some micro-serrations all the way down the edge. Balance and straightness is important too-if it don't spin straight without wobbling, it won't fly straight. I like the shape of the first one better-good length/width ratio for penetration. I usually make my hunting points triangular, about 2"-2 1/2" long and an inch wide with shallow side notches.
-
I'm like Hillbilly. I would micro serate those edges for better penetration. I like to keep the bases thin for hafting and like the simple triangular side notched for easy knapping. Purty don't matter as long as thier straght and sharp.
-
My hunting points are ugly, as are my regular points ;D I have ahd the same problem with the bases being thick. I have used thicker ended shafts to mount those. Like Hillbilly said get the cutting edges thin and try to keep it balanced.
-
A couple years ago Cowboy sent 6 points to Hawk Huston and myself to hunt elk with. I was amazed as when I put my points with his you could not tell the difference in size and design. I like to look at a point on its edge. It needs to be straight with a thin base, good simple nocks, edges sharp with no deltas, and I make the point a tiny bit thick for penetration. Hafting it on the shaft straight so it doesn't wind plane is also very important. Some materials are tougher than others but the design is about the same. This is just my opinion and looking at original points from this area the natives were not so particular. A well placed shot is propably more important! Joe
-
o.k. thanks guys...i didnt do any presure flaking on the last point yet...and i probley wont until ready for hunting...so,the last point could be used as a hunting...the reason for posting this is because i have alot of flakes that are thin and i dont want to throw them away...i think they still could be used for hunting deer or small game...so i am trying to salvage all my small flakes...thanks john
-
John this should be a great discusion. I have a few ideas and thoughts on this subject. Size sharpness and shape being critical. I like my points long and slender with a fairly strong center ridge. The long and slender will penetrate better and though it may not cut as larger of hole when shot straight in that is rarely the case and a longer cutting edge has a better Chance severing an artery then a short cutting edge. Think of it, as if it was a long serrated blade being drawn across a surface, vs a short bade being draw across the same surface. Most shots enter at a slight angle and a longer slender blade can cut a big hole without hindering penetration. This design also has less chance a wind planing or hitting bone, when going through the rib area. For mounting, I have a board jig with a couple field points inserted on each end so that it forms a spin guide for the arrow. I generally will get the point fitted fairly well then place in the jig and spin check until it is true then a few drops of super glue to hold in place, then wrap with sinew, thread or hair. I also find that it is hard to get enough weight in the tip with the shorter points. I'll try to get some pics of what I'm talking about.
-
Thought of something else. It depends on the animal you are shooting also. A wide blade on a Mt. Goat for example is a no no as the hair is so dense. Antelope have a very course hair and the Indians used serrated blades for penetration. I try to make my points close to the same weight just to make them shoot alike as possible. When I first started hunting elk and mule deer I made the points out of any kind of spall I found in chiping grounds and no two were ever alike an they were crude as all get out! Worked just fine as long as I made a good shot. We had lots of elk and deer so I did not take a shot that would let an animal dive off into some canyon that made for impossible retrieval. A large heavy point can overwhelm a lighter bow so I think you need to consider the shafts you will be using and the poundage of your bow. Just more of my opinion. Joe
-
Good points Wolf
-
This is a great discussion, I'm really hoping to get to the point this summer where I can make sharp matched hunting points. All of this info is really helpful.
-
not much to add. these guys said it all. comes down to a clean straight edge. learning how to make a sharp edge is way more important than making pretty flake scars
-
I do about the same as Paul and Hillbilly. With very fine edge micro flaking. I almost never notch my points, I don't think it is really necessary.
-
I've talked with alot of knappers/hunters on this subject,Most all agree,about edges,w/l ratios,and such. One thing they are all adamant about though is the base. Get it thin tapering to the thickest area of the point(center ridge) just where the arrow tapers out onto the point. The Clovis people are a prime example of this,fluting points in such a way to have the least resistance (shaft to point) to aid in penetration.
Works the same with arrow points,imo.
Another thing that some point out is a thing called "buroen" Not sure how to spell it, but basically it's making a diamond or "Z" shape on the tip. You only get one chance to get it right (of you shorten your point) ;D. It envolves taking one flake from each corner of the tip to reveal a sharp clean edge.
Not easy to accomplish,but man it makes a scary sharp "chisel"tip.
-
I agree with Joe that pretty points don't work any better than a rough looking point as long as the edge is sharp..and the head is hafted on straight. I will ad that the wider points tend to not penetrate as well because of resistance against hair, bone, muscle and heavy feathers like on turkeys.. So a slightly narrower point will definitely penetrate better on Turkeys, bear, elk....etc..
-
we have some good info on here...and i hope more people come in and give there info on what works for them...john
-
also if you have had success with your hunting heads you could put a photo up of your style of head and show what works for you...thanks john
-
Timo, my friend Barry usually makes that burinated tip on his hunting points. Looks and feels like the bone-splitter point on a muzzy broadhead.
-
Blacktail,
I may have a little unique experience on this subject. Not so much about Knapped Heads but about the effects of cutting wounds and how they go about causing death. As a big city Det/Sgt I've been privy to more than a hundred human autopsies, and since 1962 or so have killed about 70-75 deer (whitetails) so take this for whatever it's worth.
The first way cutting causes death, obviously is exanguation (bleeding to death) which would include liver shots, femoral arteries, etc. Any of the major arteries or liver etc. will bleed out a human or animal in very quick order. The second way that cutting wounds kill is by catastrophic colapse of vital organs by way of sudden lung collapse. A double lung shot will kill as fast or faster than an arterial cut because when the lungs collapse suddenly and catastrophically the remaining vital organs tend to shut off immediately. An example of the sudden collapse is a deer I shot through both lungs as it was feeding, the arrow passed through so fast the animal didn't even flinch it's skin.....and continued to reach for a second bite when it simply fell straight down.
Now to the point, all of the methods of killing by cutting are more efficient by having a microscopically "clean" cut. These clean cuts (very sharp blades) not only do not want to coagulate, but they hemmerage more severely. To this day it is my understanding that medical surgeons will use obsidian bladed scalpels for delicate surgeries because you cant get a "sharper" cutting edge.
The other fellas are probably right about designs etc. but the sharp edge is what you really want. the rest of the design is to get that baby where it needs to be. Sorry for the lecture but I have been able to see first hand what these types of wounds look like after they have done their work.
half eye
-
I do like a narrower and slightly thicker point for hogs. It gives me the option for head shots. I hate blood trailing them.
-
Hey Blacktail,
I just found this post. My opinions on hunting heads are: A sharp stone point mounted on a perfectly-flying arrow that is delivered accurately to the vitals is most important. I've hunted with different point designs, from triangular with no notches to side and corner notched points. Design really doesn't seem to matter...it's a sharp point that is accurately placed that brings home the bacon. Also, arrow flight is VERY important too...perfect flight greatly increases penetration over an arrow that fishtails in flight. Bow weight doesn't seem to matter that much, as I have shot lightweight reed arrows with small stone points completely thru a freshly killed deer with my little 40-lb osage bow. If you can put that arrow exactly where you want it, then you can use surprisingly lightweight bows and still be successful, and I think that's one reason why most Native American bows I've seen were not bulky, thick, or strong. Instead they were sleek, elegant, and small, and I estimate they didn't pull over 45 or 50 lbs.
I do prefer a stone point that is around 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch wider than the largest part of the shaft so it will provide enough clearance for the shaft to slide thru the wound. But I certainly don't tip my arrows with stone points that are 3/4 of an inch wide. Most of my hunting points are around 5/8 inch wide and have proved very deadly as long as I put them where I want. And beauty doesn't have anything to do with effectiveness. I shot a rabbit last year with a flat, thin point that had no flake scars except for just around the edges. It only ran 10 yards and crashed. I shot a squirrel 3 years ago with a small stemmed point that was ugly as sin...the point went thru the squirrel, hit the branch behind it, and broke the tip off. The squirrel had nowhere to go and tried to find a way out of the tree, but he couldn't go far with the arrow thru its chest. It fell outta the tree a second or two later. I killed my doe last year with a long, kinda sleek side notched point...but it certainly wasn't pretty. She only ran 50 yards and collapsed.
-
Always keep in mind that, regardless of your personal preferences, your points must conform to state law. In Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Montana a point must be a minimum of 7/8" wide. Check the regulations for where you plan to hunt before you make up a bunch of arrows you might not be able to use.
-
Here is that spin jig I was telling you about John. Really helps true up the point when mounting it. Maybe I can do a demo up at our rendezvous
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/Gatherings/IMG_2017.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/Gatherings/IMG_2018.jpg)
-
hey keenan,you will have to show it off at the rendezvous..maybe you can show me how you chip your hunting heads...thanks for the info billy.
-
There is the size points i feel should work the best. small sharp points made from flakes on a thin tapered shaft. looking for deeper penetration and keeping shots 12 yards and under- Ryan
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
How do you think this little point would work? I make it from a flake tonight.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
i think it great brown hill...i think ryans point is what i am going to shoot for...
-
Thanks Blacktail. Do these light weight points still fly good? I've never shot any points this light. Mine above is only 25 grains.
-
yeah they can still fly good. typically i would say you wouldnt want to shoot over 10 or 12 yards. they fly like darts at that range. might take a little larger fletching to keep the arrow going straight since you will have a lack of weight in the front. looks like your point is on the right path. i would actually try to shorten up the tip a little bit to eliminate that curvature in the point. but other than that i'd say thats the size and shape- Ryan
-
Thanks Ryan, I was wondering about that.