Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: II BYRDS on January 22, 2010, 10:38:26 am
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Hey All...
I think I asked this once before ??? I looked back in old post and could not find. So this Feb/Mar issue of PA has a ottawa bow, which the Ottawa fall under the Ojibwa. is this bow an Authentis Ojibwa bow, i seem not to be able to find any pics on an authentic Ojibwa bow. so if anyone can help would be great.
IIByrds
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Search around here: http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/databases/north_public/north_public.htm
I'm assuming bow styles varied quite a bit within the Ojibwa though.
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The Ojibwa and Odawa are not the same bands at all. Their bows were completely different. The Odawa (ottawa) and the Ojibwa (chippewa) and the Potawatomy were trides making up the Three Fires Confederacy. The confussion comes from the whites calling everybody in the Great Lakes region Ojibwa.
I have attached a photo of a Ojibwa bow here so you can see the difference. Odawa and Potawatomy used mostly "D" bows (bend through the handle and were scalloped both sides and single sided respectively. The Ojibwa had rigid handles and slightly stiff tips. The Potawatomy bows are well documented and I believe they are in one of the volumes of the "Encyclopedea of bows" and look somewhat like the Odawa but the scallops are only down one side.
half eye ;)
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Here is another Ojibwa Bow.......
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The OP said: ...the Ottawa fall under the Ojibwa.
Don't tell that to a Ottawa or an Ojibway!!! You'll have a fight on your hands!
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I am 1/4 Ojibwa...and I am not Offeneded..but then I am getting used to People talking without thinking....or investigating....at least He picked two Tribes from the same Region...with similar cultures...and all Anishinaabeg
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i have been studying the Anishanabe for the past five years and going to lodge meetings here localy with a group of folks that do speak Ojibwa. my name is IIBYRDS or Niizh Bineshii in Ojibwa. thanks El Destructo i am not here to Offened anyone Thanks IIbyrds.
Back to the bow thing thanks for all the input. i will be back
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No Offence taken........ ;).....as for Authentic Pictures...get The Encyclopedia of NAtive American Bows, Arrow and Quivers vol.1
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I think he was saying that they are from the same larger linguistic group and that generally means fairly close ties for tribes living reasonably close together
Like saying Seneca and Mohawk fall under the same group.
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I know exactly what He was saying.....Others may have been mistaken...the Odawa....Ojibwa.... Potawatomi are parts of the Council of Three Fires....other Anishinaabe are the Nipissing....Mississauga....and Algonkin Tribes...I don't know where the Idea came from that the Odawa...and the Ojibwa didn't get along came from...They are not one and the Same...but are not Enemies either...because in the Copper Country...Baraga to be exact... in Upper Michigan...they are mixed on the same Reservation...and not by Law...but by choice.....
The Ojibwe and Ottawa Indians are members of a longstanding alliance also including the Potawatomi tribe..... Called the Council of Three Fires..... this alliance was a powerful one which fought against the Iroquois Confederacy and the Sioux.... Though one Ottawa band was relocated to Oklahoma where they remain today... most Ottawa people live on reservations on their traditional lands in Michigan and Ontario.
Here is another Bow......
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Pat
That is spot on, The people who study Native Americans divide them by language families
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ElDestructo
I agree with you that is what I said that these three tribes were a confederacy (allies) and I'm sure that I did not say these peoples were enemies...quite the contrary....heck the only group in Michigan that gets things confussed would be Huron...they are Iriqouian by langauge group but at various times were allied with the Iriqouis and then the Ojibwa (I'm not completely clear on how many times they changed sides but for sure at least once.)
half eye ;)
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if my little pea brain remembers correctly. the three fires ???? came from the the east coast the mouth of the st lawrence river area beacause they where told that they needed to move inland do to some great white being was coming this was like hundreds of years ago. so they moved west and come to a great lake and then split up one went north one went south and one went west. ojibwa where the older bothers, odawa where next born and potawatami where the younger bothers. (the anishanabe where first man)
i did not know that i was going to start the history of the three fires.
so please get back to bows.
Thanks IIbyrds
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nice pics El Destructo now are they both Ojibwa style bows ??? Half eye the one thats on the right looks to be like the Ottawa or Odawa bow in the PA this month only scalaped on one side not both ??????
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ElDestructo
I agree with you that is what I said that these three tribes were a confederacy (allies) and I'm sure that I did not say these peoples were enemies...quite the contrary....half eye ;)
HalfEye....wasn't meant for you!! Look for the Post thats in RED..........I agree with what you stated totally
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II BYRDS....actually the two Bows that I listed are a design that both the Menominee and Ojibwa had in common...they both used this Design in Upper Michigan and Canada...along with Northern Wisconsin too....also the Potowotami had a similar design....seems the Council of Three Fires ...all used this Design....the one that HalfEye has posted reminds Me more of an Fox D Bow than an Ojibwa Bow from where I grew up...
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Aanii IIByrds,
My understanding from Jay Sam (Odawa) is that the Odawa carved both sides of their bows because they were made to resemble the spine of an animal. Why the Potawatomii choose to do only one side I don't have the answer for because I have not sat down with one of their elders to personally ask.
With these three groups being allies, friends, and trading with each other I would assume that you probably could find any of the three types of bows in any of their camps through trading if the individual was so inclined or maybe one was given as a gift etc. I dont think they were much different that the fellas around here....some of them maybe just wanted something different. The size and style of the bows are what is attributed to individual tribes, it is not a hard and fast rule that all Odawa carried the exact same bow, or the Ojibwa etc.
It's my understanding that the Three Fires traded as far East as Ottawa, and Montreal and their copper arrow heads and lance points were discovered in large numbers in Montana..... I have read that the Odawa in particular knew about the Santee Sioux's "double curved" bows but thought them to be inferior and no good for fighting from canoes etc. So I suppose that you would have to say a certain type of bow is attributed to a particular group and does not mean everybody in that group carried the same weapon.
I hope that helps
half eye ;)
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wow! the scalloping blows me away- looks like an invitation to raise splinters! i'm guessing that they used tension strong woods & trapped the back a little to relieve the edges? i'd be very interested in trying to build one of these if you're willing to post some guidance....
Rob
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El D
Me and you are good.....I thought that maybe I had given IIByrds the wrong idea is all. I gather you are in the UP somewhere? whereabouts would that be? If youre too close maybe ya want to keep a eye peeled fer one of dem dana's....hear they be's pretty sneaky ;D
half eye
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yeh one of my friends i was showing the pics to out of the PA magzine said the same thing about getting some splinters from the scallops i can see that the tillering could be a bit tricky with them there wheather one side or on both side like the Ottawa one shows in PA mag.
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IIByrds
I can't speak for El D but I can say that I've built more than 40 of these and used Ash, Elm and Maple I have broke some from seeing if they'd draw a full 28" but I have never had one lift any slivers. I guess I can not say exactly why that is....but they dont lift any.....it might be the vertical grain? but I'm not prepared to say that like it's a fact.
half eye ;)
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El D
Me and you are good.....I thought that maybe I had given IIByrds the wrong idea is all. I gather you are in the UP somewhere? whereabouts would that be? If you're too close maybe ya want to keep a eye peeled fer one of dem Dana's....hear they be's pretty sneaky ;D
half eye
I am in Texas...... ;D....I was born and raised in Ishpeming...anglified form of the Ojibwa word for In The Heavens..Ishpiming...and as fer Da Dana...well I know exactly where to find Him too!!
As for the Bows...I have had no trouble with the either from Staves ....Split Quartersawn Logs....or Air Dried Boards...They are a bit different to Tiller...but I see no weakness from the Scallops...if you look at the Design of these Bows...the Scallops are not really part of the working Limbs...Aaah...how do I explain this....the Scallops are an estension of the Sides of the Limb...the working part is not compromised really....c/mon HalfEye...you are more Articulate than I am...can Ya explain this in less than a ten page rambling.cause thats about what I will end up doing..... :-[
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i think i get it- the scallops actually fall into the neutral plane, so shouldn't be a liability
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Wheeew...now wasn't that easy....... :P
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so i have not seen any of you using Osage for these. so ash elem maple okay i can get any of these. what about black locust i have plenty any of the above trees used including Osage.
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Black Locust would not been a Wood of Choice in making these Bows...since it is a Southern Wood by Nature....it has been spread all over the USA now..but is not Native to the Northeat...but it should do just fine used to make one of these Bows....as long as the Stave was big enough to have a fairly flat Back....since Locust is more like Osage and like to have a single ring for a Back....JMO
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okay El D...
I have standing beside my house maybe 12 inch elem 20 plus ft tall that i just noticed in late fall that was dead with bark still on it can it be used???? also if i use elem which one i have slippery elm and the one with the smother bark not know the name for that one. or should i use one thats Lot smaller in diameter. the dutch elem disease has taken a tole on most elem in the area. i use the slippery elm inner bark for my Ojibwa tea.
IIByrds
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II Byrds
Up in this neck of the woods we have two kinds of elm....Red (slippery) and Grey Elm.....I have found that they both work ok but the grey is not quite as "stout", it's good wood mind you but just not quite up to the slippery elm. I've use both for bows and arrow stock (vertical grain fully quartersawn) and they are both good....the grey is a little less dense (weighs a little less).
half eye ;)
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Where do you live?? Dead Whitewood is normally not a Good Thing....Fungus sets in pretty fast in most Areas...and Spaulted Wood looks really nice for Pen Turning ....Bowl Making and Woodwork in general...but it is a no-no in Bow making...You could always cut it down and try it....as for Elms...I have made Bows from ...American...Red...and even Siberian Elm...they all seemed to work just fine to me!!
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heheheh
guess what came in the mail today........PA!
after reading the article, i can honestly say i'm hooked! i hope i can be forgiven for not smoking the stave- 4 feet of snow outside right now. i can't wait to see how the scalloped tillering works!
thank you for the inspiration & information,
Rob
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Mike,Rich
you two sure sound like you know your NA history for the region.
i have to ask,here in mn back in the day what tribes would have lived here?
was it Ojibwa? i know we have reservations of Ojibwa near Mille lacs lake(actually right next to it)and they own the casinos there too.
not sure if they were here before they were forced onto reservations or not though.
Mike i realy liked that paddle bow you posted a pics of
Rich those scalloped bows are cool as penguin poop too
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Hey Tim,
I believe that MN was basically a war zone buddy, the Santee Sioux, the Ojibwa, Odawa, Menomine, Ho Chunk and a slew of other Algonquian speaking people did a lot of fighting up in yer neck of the woods but I believe that the Santee were displaced by an allied force of Ojibwa and their allies back in the day, El D may have more info but there was a large number of allies, winnebago, Ho Chunk, menominee, miami, fox, saulk, just to name a few!!!!.....ya may want to check yer emails too!
half eye ;)
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Count me in on making a few of these bows ,they are way cool. I think I understand the need for quartersawn. Basically, the wood would be equally stable throughout the stave if quartersawn. Is that right? Anybody have any experience with quarter sawn white oak?
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Shakopee MDewakanton Dakota (Sioux)....and the Ojibwa (Chippewa)...Iowa (the Sleepy Ones)...Omaha...Wyandot (those going against the wind or current)....Foxes (wagosh)....Cheyenne (people of alien speech ).... were all Native Tribes to most of the Minnesota Lands...but after all of the Indian Wars...and all of the reloxations....Minnesota ended up being the Home to 11 different Bands...mostly Ojibwa and Sioux..they are the Bois Forte Band of Chippewas.... Grand Portage Band of the Minnesota Chippewa Tribe....Red Lake Band of Chippewa Indians....White Earth Ojibwa....Leech Lake Band of Ojibwa....Fond du Lac Ojibwa....Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwa .... Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux....Upper Sioux Indian Community....Lower Sioux Indian Community....and the Prairie Island Indian Community (Dakota)......these are the 11 Reservations that were set up in Minnesota
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Rich,Mike thank you
Mike you named about every casino we have too. ;)
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Stay away from them Casinos Boy....they are as addictive to White Boys as Whiskey is to Natives....... ;D
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Grunt,
I posted a 75# white oak carved Mollegabet a few days ago....it was made from fully quartersawn northern white oak. The entire back of that bow was carved and didn't lift slivers or such....if that helps any
half eye ;)
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Grunt,
I posted a 75# white oak carved Mollegabet a few days ago....it was made from fully quartersawn northern white oak. The entire back of that bow was carved and didn't lift slivers or such....if that helps any
half eye ;)
half eye, does help a bunch I've got some 8/4 quartersawn White Oak. Thanks for the reply
Grunt
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Grunt,
One thing about these short "D" bows, they are pretty flat so when you shoot them you almost have to "plam" them, (sort of let the bow settle into the palm of the hand. A lot of guys dont like the flat,thin bendy handles. If you are one of them you should plan on either wrapping the grip with cordage covered with leather.....or add leather pads to the back and belly and then wrap that.
Just something you may not have given any thought to....but whatever you choose ...the bow has to bend all the way through.
half eye ;)
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Half Eye and EL D
I really like those bows you posted, An Ojibwa is on my very long "must make list".
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wow what did i stat here ;D maybe we should have just a section on native American history.
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;).............. :P.................... >:D................... ;D
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half eye, really liked the article in primitave archer, can you post a close up of the handel area, also do you scallop both the back and belly. this is gonna be my next build, thank's, bubba