Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: outcaste on December 06, 2009, 11:52:19 am
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Hi Guys,
Thought you might be interested in the following:
Calling All Archers of Sure Eye and Strong Arm:
Shooting at the Medieval Butts
Evoking the spirit of our forefathers the English War Bow Society calls all archers to the field of Crick, Monmouthshire, so that they may test their strength of arm and sure eye against all-comers whilst shooting at the medieval butts. Archers will be competing for not only a trophy and the acknowledgement of their peers, but for a purse of one hundred pounds.
During Lunch the EWBS ‘Livery Arrow’ will be shot for record status distance
Venue: Wye Valley Archery
Date: Sunday 10th January 2010
First Arrows: 10.30am
Shooting Fee: £5.00
Competition Rules
Butts to be set 220 yards apart
16 ends 3 arrows per end
Garland (target) set upon the butts shall be 12ins (outside diameter) and set at a height of a mans chest
Equipment
Arrows should be of wooden construction, self-nocked and fletched with feather
Arrow profile and fletching shape is left to the archers’ discretion
Bows should be of wooden construction and of longbow design (Self-bows are encouraged)
Only arrows weighing in at 52 grams and over will be eligible for the purse and trophy
Arrows weighing less than 52 grams will be eligible for the trophy
Scoring
Winning the Purse
Only arrows 52 grams and over within the garland may win the purse. Within the garland will be deemed as any arrow inside of the garland or piercing (not touching) the rope. In the event of more than one archer hitting the garland, then closest arrow to the centre will be pronounced the winner
Winning the trophy
Any arrow landing within/piercing the garland shall be seen as a winning arrow, arrows falling within the front face of the butt shall also be counted. Any arrow within the garland or the front face of the butt will be marked with a peg with the archers name place upon it. The trophy is deemed won by the arrow within or closest to the garland, not the number of total hits accrued during the competition.
In the event of no arrows landing within the garland or face of the butt, then the trophy and prize will be deemed as not won.
Shoot organisers decision will be final.
Insurance
All archers are welcome; Wye Valley Archery will provide insurance cover on the day with all archers needing to register to be covered.
I would like to say thanks to the Moderators for allowing me to promote this shoot within this section of the forum and if anyone would like to attend or has any questions, then please pm me.
Many thanks,
Alistair
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hello Alistair
what date is the event?
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Shoot date: Sunday 10th January 2010
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I remember Rod posting about heavy bow archers being evasive about accuracy in one of your posts in the “Standarts of accuracy” thread and I think this shoot would be a great source of primary evidence. Perhaps Rod, if you could come in person it would be an ideal opportunity to set a benchmark for military distance accuracy. I’m sure an archer with a mastery of shooting technique should be easily capable of making the distance with an efficient 90lb bow.
Jeremy
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hello Alistair
what date is the event?
Hi Fella,
It would be good if you could make it. I have put the date on the initial post, 10th Jan 2010
Alistair
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A 52 gram arrow is roughly 800 grains. Such an arrow fletched with low cut feathers can easily be shot 220 yards with an efficient 80 lb bow, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if a 70# bow could do it
Good luck with your shoot
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A 52 gram arrow is roughly 800 grains. Such an arrow fletched with low cut feathers can easily be shot 220 yards with an efficient 80 lb bow, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if a 70# bow could do it
Good luck with your shoot
Yes, on a good weather day or for one end at least if the wind picks up. Where the field is usually means that any wind is tail or head as it's in a valley. In theory one arrow is enough to win :D
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Marc it wont be that easy with longbow, much less if the arrow has binding and forged arrowhead. Standard is 52 gram and see the results of distance achieved. That said, it is not best arrow for distance, since it does not like to fly far. But even low cut triangular fletch arrow wont do this distance easy with bows of this weight.
On our last shot we had surprisingly good bows in terms of cast in weights from 80#-100# - which is what most of our lads here can manage and best shot 187 m that is 204 yrds. (With 100#/31" dogwood bow and standart). We tried also more of low cut feather arrows and surprisingly didnt get that much distance over it. It might actually do 220 in better weather and without crosswind and with better arrow. My pal Paja has another 80# dogwood bow, which for its weight is one of best longbows I have seen and it wont do the distance.
Usually 80# longbow is quite good if it does 200 yrds with standart. 220 with 100# is pretty good if you look at the results. I would think it would need lots of fidling with arrow to get 220 yrds from 80#, much less 75#.
But then, I m first to admit we dont have best arrows around made.
J.
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As it happens I mentioned this shoot to F.Russell French who holds a "Three Clout End" award, probably the only known LB three clout end to date in open competition, in the form of a blazer badge especially made for and presented to him by Bert Smith for three consecutive arrows in the clout in BLBS competition.
Predictably, the response was not unexpected.
Although he is capable of making the distance with the necessary equipment, he expressed the view that he was not inclined to go to the trouble of travelling to a shoot where the rules of shooting made it a lottery rather than a test of skill.
Not to say that the odds would not be somewat in the favour of the better archers, but we have seen it happen before at fun shoots where a notorious muff wins with one serendipitous arrow.
If I had the necessary equipment to hand and was able to attend, I would be happy to shoot if the number of hits by every archer were published, even if I were at the bottom of that list with no hits at all, which is by no means impossible at 220 yards, especially on a windy day.
And given my dilapidated physical condition, Jeremy. ::)
I have been considering a heavier bow, no doubt still light by artillery standards, but I am torn between that and making a new primitive bow to my own measure for instinctive field shooting in the NFAS.
I don't get out much these days, but I did win an Xmas Pudding yesterday at Spirit of Sherwood with a tolerable but not outstanding peg average of 13.5 using a borrowed bow that I made quite some time ago for a friend who has much shorter arms than I.
Still, I am glad to see this healthy but tentative step towards addressing what until now has appeared to be an unpopular topic.
Rod.
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As it happens I mentioned this shoot to F.Russell French who holds a "Three Clout End" award, probably the only known LB three clout end to date in open competition, in the form of a blazer badge especially made for and presented to him by Bert Smith for three consecutive arrows in the clout in BLBS competition.
Predictably, the response was not unexpected.
Although he is capable of making the distance with the necessary equipment, he expressed the view that he was not inclined to go to the trouble of travelling to a shoot where the rules of shooting made it a lottery rather than a test of skill.
Not to say that the odds would not be somewat in the favour of the better archers, but we have seen it happen before at fun shoots where a notorious muff wins with one serendipitous arrow.
If I had the necessary equipment to hand and was able to attend, I would be happy to shoot if the number of hits by every archer were published, even if I were at the bottom of that list with no hits at all, which is by no means impossible at 220 yards, especially on a windy day.
And given my dilapidated physical condition, Jeremy. ::)
I have been considering a heavier bow, no doubt still light by artillery standards, but I am torn between that and making a new primitive bow to my own measure for instinctive field shooting in the NFAS.
I don't get out much these days, but I did win an Xmas Pudding yesterday at Spirit of Sherwood with a tolerable but not outstanding peg average (16.2 adjusted) using a borrowed bow that I made quite some time ago for a friend who has much shorter arms than I.
Still, I am glad to see this healthy but tentative step towards addressing what until now has appeared to be an unpopular topic.
Rod.
So what your saying is that because you/or he cant do it know one can??
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If I had the necessary equipment to hand and was able to attend, I would be happy to shoot if the number of hits by every archer were published, even if I were at the bottom of that list with no hits at all, which is by no means impossible at 220 yards, especially on a windy day.
Rod,
The results of our shoots are always posted on the EWBS website but in this case they were always to be posted on PA, as it is a tread here (total hits on the butts and closest to the garland). So if that's all that's stopping you and Mr. French it would be a pleasure to have you both there.
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Sounds to me like it's put-up or shut-up time for some people.
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Interesting how some folks can find the meaning they want by reading between the lines.
(And that none of you have commented upon my mischievous 16.2 (13.5 actually) which would produce a score in PB territory for primitive and very near to it in longbow).
But then when your focus has been on more upon draw weight and how far they go for so long, and where they go is attendant upon mastery of the weight, it is understandable that accuracy will tend to be neglected in the beginning.
If and when I got back into shooting a heavier weight, it would be fun to attend, but preferably somewhere more centrally located.
This event is a positive step if it generates more interest on a hitherto neglected area and opens the door to methodically benchmarking probable accuracy and increasing our knowledge of the heavy bow and its capabilities in the hands of those who have mastered it.
As for the amusing innuendo about shooting technique.... :)
Rod.
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Interesting how some folks can find the meaning they want by reading between the lines.
(And that none of you have commented upon my mischievous 16.2 (13.5 actually) which would produce a score in PB territory for primitive and very near to it in longbow).
But then when your focus has been on more upon draw weight and how far they go for so long, and where they go is attendant upon mastery of the weight, it is understandable that accuracy will tend to be neglected in the beginning.
If and when I got back into shooting a heavier weight, it would be fun to attend, but preferably somewhere more centrally located.
This event is a positive step if it generates more interest on a hitherto neglected area and opens the door to methodically benchmarking probable accuracy and increasing our knowledge of the heavy bow and its capabilities in the hands of those who have mastered it.
As for the amusing innuendo about shooting technique.... :)
Rod.
I'll take that as a no, then.
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Hmmmm arm chair archery is a tiresome sport dont you think
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:D :D :D
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:o
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Seems to be an excess of testosterone in this group. I guess it goes with the territory :)
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GGGGRRRRRRRRRR Beat Chest GGGRRRRRR
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I'm easy to find at an NFAS Field shoot. I'm the one carrying an armchair between the pegs....
But seriously, it would be nice to see more of you blokes shooting in field archery, there is nothing to prevent you since the only criteria are that you have sufficient command of the bow to shoot safely (which is something required of everyone), mark your shafts clearly as first, second and third arrows, write your name on every shaft and use piles or field points.
There is no restriction on draw-weight as such, only an arrow speed limit of 300 fps.
And bowhunting was after all not unknown to our ancestors.
The second time I met Mark Stretton was at an NFAS field shoot.
It seems to me that Alistair has made a sensible enough decision about awarding the purse from an attendance point of view. The rules as they stand will probably encourage more heavy bow entrants than awarding it on hits.
But it is the publishing of hits that will inform us more usefully and set a benchmark that will be a starting point for more serious consideration of the question of accuracy.
Rod.
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Just to give a flavour of what to expect, here are some pics of a roving shoot that had some butts as part of the rove.
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/leafy_bow/agincourt%20shoot%202009/IMGP1402.jpg)
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/leafy_bow/agincourt%20shoot%202009/IMGP1404.jpg)
Cheers,
Alistair
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I'The rules as they stand will probably encourage more heavy bow entrants than awarding it on hits.
But it is the publishing of hits that will inform us more usefully and set a benchmark that will be a starting point for more serious consideration of the question of accuracy.
Rod.
???
I don't understand this comment?
When I have shot at a BL-BS clout, on a number of occasions, the prize has been a trophy and the acknowledgment of one’s peers. Cash never came into it, nor did it necessarily need to. As the numbers of hits are recorded, is that not enough? This thread is about a war arrow butt shoot once practised every Sunday by thousands? Come on Rod, no need for Freudian deflection with the field shooting, come and shoot and put down that benchmark you talk of.
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In my view the prize at clout shooting is an understanding of the process and since you have shot some clout there should be no need to elaborate further on the role of luck.
Whilst it is true that to a certain extent that by careful practice we make our own luck, you should understand from your own experience that such a target and system of scoring as is proposed will not usefully represent the distribution of the arrows shot on the day.
In due course, I may choose to make a heavier bow and I may choose to spend some time working with it. In such an event I may choose to post some results.
In the meantime you may find it more rewarding to work on your own shooting.
Rod.
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I have to agree with your points Rod.
I have no doubt your tentative step towards the possibility at least actually making and shooting a heavy bow will stand you in good stead as the 'English Warbow' moderator.
In the meantime I will, as ever, continue to work on my own warbow shooting...by actually shooting one.
Jeremy
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And I will remain in anticipation of some meaningful reports on the topic of accuracy attainable when you and your friends feel able to confront the issue.
Rod.
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I don't know how you can possibly say that, If azncourt was fought in a wood with the french no more than 30 yards away then yep NFAS Field shooting is the way to go, unfortunately for you that never happened it all ways started at a distance, the English were expected to land an arrow within a group of calvery, medevil archers were professional and much better than we can hope to be, to them 220 Yds would be like 30 is to us,
You must have seen the video of Simon hitting a road sign at 200yds go to him and say it was a fluke,
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The Butts in the illustration look more like bales of hay .....
are the medieval butts to be shot at on the 10th bales of hay or earth mound butts?
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The Butts in the illustration look more like bales of hay .....
are the medieval butts to be shot at on the 10th bales of hay or earth mound butts?
Bales of hay wrapped in hessian, though in the future they may be of earth construction.
Alistair
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.... then they're not butts .... just bales of hay wraped in hessian
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Cant really respect the opinion of someone who has the screen name 'Horace Ford' in a Warbow section.
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Cant really respect the opinion of someone who has the screen name 'Horace Ford' in a Warbow section.
What's in a name, (outcast, ratty,)
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My point is ....
The shoot is advertised as "Shooting at the Medieval Butts" ... this implies that someone has found existing remains of actual medieval butts and permission has been granted to use them ..... not shooting at bales of hay wrapped in hessian, I can do that any day of the week on my own farm
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Going to poke my oar in. Define "Butts". Butts is plural for Butt which means end, hence clout shooters refer to each round as an "end" "I shot 12 ends yesterday". These days to say "I shot 12 butts yesterday" would sound like you've shot 12 arses, as opposed to 12 diminutive donkeys (asses).
Water butt, A container for collecting water at the END of a drain or soak away.
Cigarette butt. The END of a cigarette, the finish.
It's perfectly good English from the Anglo-Saxon.
Therefore it makes NO difference what the butt is made from.
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Cant really respect the opinion of someone who has the screen name 'Horace Ford' in a Warbow section.
What's in a name, (outcast, ratty,)
hey don't drag me into it Marc St Louis !
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No offense ratty or outcast, just using both you're usernames as an example.
Nobody knows why we use the names we pick but ourselves so discounting the words of another based on nothing more than their usernames doesn't make sense.
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I suppose you know who Horace Ford is, If anyone liked the man so much as to use his name then they will also
be very much a target archer and will not understand the medieval bow, which is obviously why he has to pick at the
Medieval Butts name.
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I suppose you know who Horace Ford is, If anyone liked the man so much as to use his name then they will also
be very much a target archer and will not understand the medieval bow, which is obviously why he has to pick at the
Medieval Butts name.
Perhaps
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which is obviously why he has to pick at the Medieval Butts name.
Not at all .... I'm merely pointing out that your advertising shooting at medieval butts when actualy your shooting at hay bales. I'd of thought historical accuracy would be important to The EWBS
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which is obviously why he has to pick at the Medieval Butts name.
Not at all .... I'm merely pointing out that your advertising shooting at medieval butts when actualy your shooting at hay bales. I'd of thought historical accuracy would be important to The EWBS
why is it some people have to be argumentative for no good reason, what Alistair and Jeremy are doing is a fun shoot meant to challenge the archers, the fact that a hesian covered hay bail is being used is irrelevent, what is relevent is the distance of 220 yards.
Also if we want to get picky about stuff you could also say that all the test data in the great warbow book by Hardy and Strickland is worthless as the bows being shot are all American yew and to us here in England, America did not exist at that time (no offence to all our American cousins). As we do know this is very relevent info but is not stickly accurate.
Anyway well done for what you are both doing Al & Jez.
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which is obviously why he has to pick at the Medieval Butts name.
Not at all .... I'm merely pointing out that your advertising shooting at medieval butts when actualy your shooting at hay bales. I'd of thought historical accuracy would be important to The EWBS
why is it some people have to be argumentative for no good reason, what Alistair and Jeremy are doing is a fun shoot meant to challenge the archers, the fact that a hesian covered hay bail is being used is irrelevent, what is relevent is the distance of 220 yards.
Also if we want to get picky about stuff you could also say that all the test data in the great warbow book by Hardy and Strickland is worthless as the bows being shot are all American yew and to us here in England, America did not exist at that time (no offence to all our American cousins). As we do know this is very relevent info but is not stickly accurate.
Anyway well done for what you are both doing Al & Jez.
No doubt about it. It is well done
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Absolutely. Rather than carp about the construction of the "butt" I would be more concerned that they accurately represent the size of a mediaeval butt and have had some correspondence with Alistair on this point.
As for the uninformed view that the only application of the heavy bow was to shoot volleys at large groups people, this is foolish.
True it is a primary battlefield application, but if Ian thinks that the mediaeval archer never poached a deer or fought in a running skirmish or a wide variety of tactical situations requiring individual accuracy then I would suggest that he think again.
And who was it that said that for a mediaeval archer, shooting accurately at 220 yards would be "just like" i.e. no more difficult than shooting at 30 yards?
Reading such a statement one cannot help but be curious about the judgement of the writer. ::)
"Just like" no doubt in terms of experience of both distances, but "just like" in terms of the pragmatically achievable shot distribution, chalk and cheese...
At 220 yards one would hope to hold the length and have an acceptable spread, the latter being far less important than the former, but at 30 yards I would expect a competent archer to hit his man most of the time using only one arrow.
It is probably worth noting that the 11 score distance was not always a compulsory mimimum and was most likely intended to encourage a holding of the distance and a degree of lateral accuracy for barrage fire using a heavy shaft.
The Lutrell Psalter image might lead one to assume that it was not uncommon at other times to shoot at the butts at shorter distances, given the angle of the pricking shafts as shown.
Informed comment on this point would be appreciated, possibly as a separate topic.
As for "Horace Ford", it may be that the selection of the handle reflects his interests, but speaking only for myself, I would not be so presumptious as to adopt the name and might be inclined to mischievously enquire as to this gentleman's name and scores for the York round. :-\
But this would perhaps be going too far....
Rod.
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Gentleman
I wish this event every possible success, and hope that it grows and introduces many many more people to shooting bigger bows at longer, more challenging distances.
Sadly it would be difficult to arrange a flight to attend this event at such short notice.
As for the name ... well ... who cares
Rod ... best two way York round score 504
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Gentleman
I wish this event every possible success, and hope that it grows and introduces many many more people to shooting bigger bows at longer, more challenging distances.
Sadly it would be difficult to arrange a flight to attend this event at such short notice.
As for the name ... well ... who cares
Rod ... best two way York round score 504
A creditable score in anyone's book. Certainly sufficient that those who cannot match it should not carp at your choice of name.
Rod.
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How do you know if I cant match it,
I don't agree with you Rod so lets leave it there, I not going to argue with you.
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Jeez, I bet ya'll wish the Sun came out more over there? ::)
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How do you know if I cant match it,
I don't agree with you Rod so lets leave it there, I not going to argue with you.
The short answer is that I don't know what you can score.
Your name was not mentioned.
If you find a hat on the street that you don't like, why pick it up and put it on?
Rod.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEFGvAtt9Es
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:D :D :D
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Scores can be quite misleading. I prefer the BLBS method of counting hits rather than the actual value of the score, so I,ve looked back through my own records to see my results from York rounds in private practice.
Best 2 way score for a single York round 504 with 127 hits
Best one way single York 502 with 138 hits
I've always considered the latter to be the better shooting
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You're probably right that in long shooting spread and the location of the centre of group tells us more than, dare I say, the occasional lucky arrow that bumps up the score on the day.
But it is also true that the more we practice, the luckier we get.
(If we practice enough).
But enough about "target shooting". ;)
Rod.
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I don't know how you can possibly say that, If azncourt was fought in a wood with the french no more than 30 yards away then yep NFAS Field shooting is the way to go, unfortunately for you that never happened it all ways started at a distance, the English were expected to land an arrow within a group of calvery, medevil archers were professional and much better than we can hope to be, to them 220 Yds would be like 30 is to us,
You must have seen the video of Simon hitting a road sign at 200yds go to him and say it was a fluke,
Which video do you refer to Ian, I am aware of two versions of this, one I looked at again today which shows one arrow in the mark, another which finishes with three in the mark.
Look again and tell me exactly what you see.
In fact post links here to these clips.
Rod.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR0pvYkZy7A
this shows him land 3 or 4 close and 1 hit, if he did that all day like they will on the 10th then we shouldl get some results
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I suppose you know who Horace Ford is, If anyone liked the man so much as to use his name then they will also
be very much a target archer and will not understand the medieval bow, which is obviously why he has to pick at the
Medieval Butts name.
With the exception of flight shooting, isn't ALL archery "target archery"
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Im not arguing with you,
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Im not arguing with you,
Ian ..I'm not asking you to argue with myself or anyone.I'm merely pointing out that with the exception of flight shooting, all archery is target archery ..... even ... shooting at medieval butts or hay bales whatever the case may be
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All archery is target archery in the sense that we usually shoot at a mark, even if it is a patch of hair on a game animal, but obviously not all archery is "Target Archery" in the commonly understood sense of shooting repeatedly at fixed distances for hits or points.
Ian, that is one of the versions I have seen.
I have long considered Simon to be perhaps the best at shooting in the heavy bow and have a great deal of respect for his ability.
I'm sure you are right about the shoot on the tenth, anyone who can keep that close will hit it sooner rather than later. I am also sure that Simon understands the place of luck in long shooting as distinct from close shooting.
Having worked for TV myself on more than one occasion I have a healthy degree of mistrust for the media.
In this case we can see that the shaft striking the target enters at a significantly lower angle than than those in the ground.
This is not a comment on Simon's shooting, but upon the practices of the media. It does not detract from the pleasure of seeing him shoot a heavy bow with this degree of control.
Rod.
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To be finicky bastard - when he shows the bow in close up and speaks about heartwood and sapwood its as I strongly suspect Chris Boyton yew hickory backed bow. :D So much for television.
J.
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To be finicky bastard - when he shows the bow in close up and speaks about heartwood and sapwood its as I strongly suspect Chris Boyton yew hickory backed bow. :D So much for television.
J.
Haha i saw that on he close up
It should be the single growth ring hickory is good in tension and the heartwood in compression
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I think you'll find that both those bows were made by the late Roy King
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I wish this event every possible success, and hope that it grows and introduces many many more people to shooting bigger bows at longer, more challenging distances.
Thanks for the sentiment :)
I agree that it would have been even more evocative if we had been able to shoot at historical butts but as Yewboy succinctly points out it does not affect the martial aspect. After all an arrow in the ‘gold’ now is just yellow ink but does that make the shot any worse? Let’s face it; you’re not really Horace Ford either!!! It is worth remembering that Bronze Age tumuli have been known to have been pressed into service as a shooting butt so I think the pragmatic nature of our construction is quite in keeping with the medieval mindset. Nowadays, rare surviving examples of mediaeval butts are scheduled ancient monuments and getting English Heritage/Cadw to agree to us deconstructing the outer surface to remove stones, ensuring no public right away, ensuring adequate infrastructure and many other logistical issues such as insurance would be, we feel nigh on impossible at worst and extremely difficult at best. If anyone knows different please PM me and I’d love to be able to do it.
Rod makes an interesting point about the angle of the blunts shown on the famous Luttrell Psalter illustration and the distance that such an angle indicates assuming it is accurately portrayed. I understand that many villages had only one butt and that there was no universal protocol for shooting and scoring, which seems to be a Victorian obsession.
Jeremy
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Doesnt change the fact that it is the backed bow, or I have not seen one.
J.
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The bow shown being shot is Osage, yew, Hickory - Made by Roy King
The other bow being handled by Robert Hardy is also Osage, Hickory - Made by Chris Boyton.
I have to agree that all shooting is at a target of some description, be it a flag in the ground, a spot on a tree or a patch on a bears backside. ;)
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JB,
Would that be a real bear or a foam field target bear with a spotty back side? :D
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Going to poke my oar in. Define "Butts". Butts is plural for Butt which means end, hence clout shooters refer to each round as an "end" "I shot 12 ends yesterday". These days to say "I shot 12 butts yesterday" would sound like you've shot 12 arses, as opposed to 12 diminutive donkeys (asses).
Water butt, A container for collecting water at the END of a drain or soak away.
Cigarette butt. The END of a cigarette, the finish.
It's perfectly good English from the Anglo-Saxon.
Therefore it makes NO difference what the butt is made from.
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No offense intended. Here’s my oar. It really helps communication to stick to correct definitions and don’t get into discussions of what a longbow is that end up including flatbows, Holmegaard bows, shortbows of fibreglass or other inappropriate materials. There are archery butts, pretty much any archery practice field, and there are medieval butts which are mounds of earth, usually constructed in facing pairs, of a specific size on which are fastened marks consisting of cloth or paper with a small spot of white or black and no Horace Ford coloured rings. That’s what’s in a name.
Of course an arrow in the gold is as good as an arrow in the white. My understanding is that facing butts were almost universal to save a lot of walking when only three arrows were shot at an end [in the one direction]. While there were no coloured rings to accumulate points, every mediaeval archery competition I know of followed simple rules. First, shooting order was determined usually two teams Then first arrow in the white won that end. If no one hit the white everyone went to the other end and closest arrow won. Other hits were considered worthless. Please decide. You’re shooting butts or shooting medieval butts
For those still confused about mediaeval butts I suggest http://www.englishwarbow.com/medieval-archery.html
Happy New Year
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from EWBS website
"An archery butt was nothing special in itself; it consisted usually of an earth bank, about the height of a man and probably as wide and as deep again. These would be allowed to grass over and upon which a target of cloth or paint could be put.
If you advertise a shoot at medieval butts, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that you'd be shooting at something that resembles the description above, and not a hay bale, after all the description is taken from the EWBS website. The last time I looked there were no hay bales depicted in the Lutteral Psalter
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If you want to be that pedantic, its "Luttrell psalter".
Obviously, due to scarcity of shooting sites big enough to accomodate warbow shots, that combined with low numbers of people which actually shoot big bows its not economical to make earthworks like those which were used even in target archery 200 years ago.
That said our first czech event accomodated 9 shooters who had all together 6 bows.
J.
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I can't get my head around the attitude of some on this topic. is the pedantic attitude driven by jealousy? or is it once again "I can't do it, so nor can anyone else"? Bow Toxo has visited England, did you see open swathes of countryside that would allow us to create earthen mounds? You talk like you're reincarnated. There have been a couple of Saracens heads shoots but these days, it's difficult to get genuine pickled heads and we may find ourselves accused of islamaphobia. Get into the spirit of it for christs sake ::) If you can't be constuctive, BUTT out
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I can't get my head around the attitude of some on this topic. is the pedantic attitude driven by jealousy? or is it once again "I can't do it, so nor can anyone else"? Bow Toxo has visited England, did you see open swathes of countryside that would allow us to create earthen mounds? You talk like you're reincarnated. There have been a couple of Saracens heads shoots but these days, it's difficult to get genuine pickled heads and we may find ourselves accused of islamaphobia. Get into the spirit of it for christs sake ::) If you can't be constuctive, BUTT out
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I didn't say that you should construct medieval butts. My point was that if you can't, don't call straw bales MEDIEVAL butts. The word has an actual meaning. Don't you even read English Warbow information? I would expect that, in this forum of all places, the word would not be so sloppily applied with so little respect for our heritage. If you can't live with calling the straw bales BUTTS, which they are, I can't imagine what you are trying to prove..
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I give up. talk about missing the point. for someone of obvious intelligence, you seem to find it easy to betray it. What the butt is made from, makes no difference to the outcome, does it? Are you sure you understand what the aim is? And who's to say that all butts were constructed the same? or am I talking to a timelord?
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from EWBS website
"An archery butt was nothing special in itself; it consisted usually of an earth bank, about the height of a man and probably as wide and as deep again. These would be allowed to grass over and upon which a target of cloth or paint could be put.
If you advertise a shoot at medieval butts, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that you'd be shooting at something that resembles the description above, and not a hay bale, after all the description is taken from the EWBS website. The last time I looked there were no hay bales depicted in the Lutteral Psalter
Hi,
I am sorry this quote is not from the EWBS website but from englishwarbow.com. If you require more information on the EWBS then I would suggest looking at englishwarbowsociety.com. You will find out quite a lot, including shoot info, arrow specs and that sort of thing.
Alistair
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from EWBS website
"An archery butt was nothing special in itself; it consisted usually of an earth bank, about the height of a man and probably as wide and as deep again. These would be allowed to grass over and upon which a target of cloth or paint could be put.
If you advertise a shoot at medieval butts, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that you'd be shooting at something that resembles the description above, and not a hay bale, after all the description is taken from the EWBS website. The last time I looked there were no hay bales depicted in the Lutteral Psalter
"usually", a useful word. A straw stack seems to me like an excellent alternative - then, as now - for a shoot held out of town. All that damned earth with pointy bits in it is a bitch to carry around.
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So it's a bale and not an earthen butt.
Unless you wish to sue under the Trade Description Act, I suggest that having made the point we let it go.
If a landowner could be found who allowed construction of the butts and regular access for shooting at them, then it would perhaps be worth the trouble of constructing some earthen butts to an agreed size.
It is something I have contemplated.
I say agreed size, since an accepted format might prove useful for the purposes of comparison, should the day arrive when that is considered acceptable.
I agree with Jeremy that in mediaeval times it is likely that there was local variation in practice, though laws were passed from time to time prohibiting shorter distances so as to encourage strong shooting.
Nonetheless, to call targets of a standard size and recording scores a Victorian obsession is perhaps more a reaction against lawn archery and its lineal descendents GNAS and FITA target shooting than a balanced comment on past practice.
Whilst it is true that hits were in the past considered the real criterion, the use of a target of a more or less standardised size is ancient, since it has long been understood that a hit on a given sized mark at the distance offers a truer basis for comparison than hits on targets of different sizes.
As for continuing comment on user names, that could become a sport in it's own right. ;)
Better to let it rest.
Rod.
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Hello everyone.
Hopefully, someone here can answer a question I posted a while back, but didn't get any definative answers.
I have the opportunity to build a replica earthen butt on my club's grounds. What I need to understand is what a medieval earthern butt looked like. How big in diameter it was, how tall was it, did it have sloping sides or just one side flattened for target placement, what kinds of targets do we think were used and how were they attached? Was the butt covered in grass or sod? Do they take a lot of maintenance?
It seems there are few if any replica soil medieval butts in existance, in England or elsewhere. I'd like to be able to build one (the size of the field I will construct on will allow only one butt, but that is far better than none :) ). I have the earth moving equipment at my disposal, and the labor, but need to design the thing and get started. I'm stuck on the design.
Can anyone help?
Thank you,
Dane
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Contact Hugh Soar.
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Does he hang out here, or does he have a website or email to contact him?
Dane
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I would try society of archery antiquities. They have forum and he is member there.
There is rather comprehensive info on earthworks preserved until victorian /or pre victorian era in Hardy´s longbow, altough he does not necessarily writes about the size etc.
One of the main problems was actually maintenance so they were eventually discarded in favor of lighte and portable targets.
Jaro
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Thank you, Jaro, for the lead. I will see what comes of it.
I find it frustrating that the warbow folks seem such a closed society. You (not you Jaro, I mean in general) seem so unwelcoming of "outsiders." It seems to me war bow shooters and scholars would be very happy to see a medieval earthen butt constructed anywhere, and perhaps there are none in the world? Or, no one really knows much about the dimensions of such substantial works?
Maintenance should not be an issue at the site I will be using.
Dane
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Dane, I dont think that warbow shooters are closed comunity, but constant influx of idiots can make people edgy. I recall myslef some 10 years ago when I came to this very exact forum - which at the time was far less politically correct, with questions about bows and was told "f**k o**, read this, this and this and THEN return to ask. There is awfull lot of research and work published in couple of last years on the subject of warbows and certain things have became established fact eg - median weight of bows on MR - which is something which cannot really be much disputed in the light of what replicas in decent wood do. Yet every once a while comes an individual .........
You see where I m comming. Also, there is steady harrasment from a group of people who cannot do it themselves, yet they dont hesitate to have opinion on everything as if they do.
Jaro
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Dane, I dont think that warbow shooters are closed comunity, but constant influx of idiots can make people edgy.
I recall myslef some 10 years ago when I came to this very exact forum - which at the time was far less politically correct, with questions about bows and was told "f**k o**, read this, this and this and THEN return to ask.
You see where I m comming. Also, there is steady harrasment from a group of people who cannot do it themselves, yet they dont hesitate to have opinion on everything as if they do.
Jaro
??? I remember when you first came to the PA message board and I don't remember that Jaroslav. Who told you that?
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That I dont remeber either. I remeber you and Rod being most helpfull though - even though my english was really bad at the time ;D
Jaro
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I remember, Jaro, That's when I first came here from PaleoPlanet. I met you over there. It is when the site almost became non-existant, Marc. But what I was going to ask, Rod, is, can you guy's shoot bows in Meets that are not English longbows? It seems that if anybody even mentions a bow that is not in the shape of a walking stick then everybody gets their shorts in a wad.
The 3-D shoots over here are fun. Walk through the woods with 20 targets set out at different distances. Usually set in hunting situations and shootin groups at a fun, leisurely pace. eat lunch and do it again. Then shoot another 20 rounds the next day for a total score and trophy's and auctions and raffle drawings for targets and archery gear.
Are the shoots in England structured different?, because it is hard to tell with the conversation on the Warbow Posts. It sounds like a lot of bickering.
I'm not trying to offend anybody, but I was just curious if you can shoot recurves, horsebows, etc., or if you guy's have stringent rules against that.
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Dane, I dont think that warbow shooters are closed comunity, but constant influx of idiots can make people edgy. I recall myslef some 10 years ago when I came to this very exact forum - which at the time was far less politically correct, with questions about bows and was told "f**k o**, read this, this and this and THEN return to ask. There is awfull lot of research and work published in couple of last years on the subject of warbows and certain things have became established fact eg - median weight of bows on MR - which is something which cannot really be much disputed in the light of what replicas in decent wood do. Yet every once a while comes an individual .........
You see where I m comming. Also, there is steady harrasment from a group of people who cannot do it themselves, yet they dont hesitate to have opinion on everything as if they do.
Jaro
Well, Jaro, I have noticed that certain individuals do like to do the things you suggest. I have always thought the best way to deal with that is to ignore them and they will simply go away. Tempers tend to run high around here, though, and when the right buttons are pushed, the sparks fly. Napoleon was dead wrong when he called England a nation of shopkeepers. :)
I will follow your lead, again, thank you for that, and see what happens. I may even try building a high-poundage yew d bow one day. I have some excellent yew, but am not touching it or even thinking about doing so until I am ready. Wasting it would be criminal.
Dane
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Not to speak for the Rod, but he did his own fair deal of 3d shooting with hickory flatbow and I have sold some nice ash flatbows for 3d to england.
Anyway Dane - I have always thought that passive position is actually worst one of all. It does not deters the agresor, it will always only encourage him.
"Napoleon was dead wrong when he called England a nation of shopkeepers." - Churchill on the other side called Itally "the soft underbelly of the europe" - words he lived to regret. - Which only tells us that even great men can be dead wrong sometimes. ;D
J.
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Eddie,
I would have to check the current rules, but if you are asking where heavy bows could be shot, then as I mentioned earlier, there is nothing in NFAS rules to prevent a heavy bow being shot at instinctively at unmarked distance 3D's as the rules stand.
There is only a prohibition on exceeding 300fps which they are not likely to do.
Issues might forseeably arise from there being objections in the case of unsafe shooting or excessive damage to 3D's, but the former applies to all archers and the latter also to compound bows.
In the BLBS which is specifically intended to preserve lawn archery as it was practised in the 19th and early 20thC, there is a limit on draw-weight of 70lb, I believe.
In GNAS, without checking the rules, I believe it may be the same.
Likewise in EFAA, which is primarily marked distance field shooting.
If you are asking what other styles can be shot, in NFAS unmarked distance field shooting, pretty much what you please, though if there is no class for it you may find yourself shooting in a "superior" bow class since most rules are written to exclude a perceived advantage in equipment, not to exclude what might be perceived as a disadvantage.
A lot of folks shoot for fun without being too competitive, but in all classes there is at least a small competitive element, even in PV (primitive) which only became a class of its own quite recently.
Before this I had shot a primitive bow in a variety of "superior" bow classes.
The only thing, perhaps, that prevents anyone from shooting a heavy bow under the existing rules might be a reluctance to see the scores published.
Which if the case is odd, since many of the better longbow field shooters are not afraid of comparison with other bow classes and in fact sometimes post scores that are closer than might be expected on the day to the winning hi-tech bow.
BLBS is primarily two way shooting, Target and Clout, though under the auspices of Hugh Soar there is a limited amount of heavy bow shooting for distance.
In GNAS which is affiliated to FITA (who do not recognise the Longbow*) the choice of bow styles is more limited, being essentially Olympic recurve, Compound Unlimited, Barebow and the Longbow.
Target shooting is their main interest, with some Field archery, Clout, and rarely Flight and Popinjay.
They also shoot indoors in the winter !
Compound Limited (finger release) may now only be shot in GNAS field archery, no longer inTarget.
EFAA is IFAA affiliated and they tend to shoot paper faces at marked distance set in cleared lanes (and since the IFAA also does not recognise the Longbow*) I tend not to think about them too much.
* The Longbow being what you blokes eccentrically call an ELB. Whereas we call an American longbow an AFB. or sometimes a longbow.
Rod.
Tomahtoe, tomayto, let's call the whole thing off.... ::)
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Not to speak for the Rod, but he did his own fair deal of 3d shooting with hickory flatbow and I have sold some nice ash flatbows for 3d to england.
Anyway Dane - I have always thought that passive position is actually worst one of all. It does not deters the agresor, it will always only encourage him.
"Napoleon was dead wrong when he called England a nation of shopkeepers." - Churchill on the other side called Itally "the soft underbelly of the europe" - words he lived to regret. - Which only tells us that even great men can be dead wrong sometimes. ;D
J.
Probably the fantastic style of the Italians and their love of life lulled him into forgetting that Italy is from where the Romans sprang :)
Seriously though, if the entire board ignores and shuns troublemakers, they will have no voice and will fade from view, if not as quickly as you like. Folks who thrive on confrontation will drain you and ruin it for everyone else. My opinion, though.
Have a care, and good luck with the new year.
Dane
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Thanks, Rod, that clears up a lot. Now I have to ask, what is a popinjay and a clout shoot?
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Mullet,
from Wikipedia
"The format and rules of popinjay given below are drawn from those defined for the United Kingdom by the Grand National Archery Society. The specific rules are given in the GNAS Rules of Shooting 2006, rules 1000 to 1006. (GNAS, 2006)
The object of popinjay is to knock artificial birds off their perches. The perches are cross-pieces on top of a 90-foot (27 m) mast. The "cock" (the largest bird) is set on the top cross piece. Four smaller "hens" are set on the next crosspiece down. Two dozen or so "chicks" (the smallest birds) are set on the lower cross pieces. (GNAS, 2006 - rule 1000)
The archer stands near the base of the mast and shoots arrows upwards at the birds. (GNAS, 2006 - rule 1000) The arrows are tipped with rubber blunts rather than sharp points. The blunts are between 0.75 inches (19 mm) and 1-inch (25 mm) in diameter. (GNAS, 2006 - rule 1001)
Points are scored for each bird knocked off. Typically, the archer scores 5 points for the cock, 3 points for a hen and 1 point for a chick. (GNAS, 2006 - rule 1004)"
The original form used live birds.
As for clout shooting: again from Wikipedia
Clout is a form of archery in which archers shoot arrows at a flag (known as "the Clout") from a relatively long distance and score points depending on how close each arrow lands to the flag.
Scoring zones are defined by maximum radii from the flag pole. Each arrow scores points depending on which scoring zone it enters the ground in. An arrow embedded in the flag pole is counted as being in the highest scoring zone. If an arrow is laying on the ground, it is considered to be in the scoring zone in which its point lies.
The scoring zones may be marked on the ground. Where this is not practical, a non-stretch rope or chain marked with the radii of the scoring zones is attached to the flag pole and swept around it to determine which arrows are in which zones.
A designated person collects the arrows in each zone, sorts them into sets, and lays them on the ground. Each archer in turn points to his or her arrows and calls out the scores in descending order.
A single clout round consists of three dozen arrows, shot in ends of 6 arrows. Tournaments typically consist of a double clout round, in which a total of six dozen arrows is shot.
There are variations to the rules for different archery bodies, (GNAS, BL-BS, FITA, and Archery Australia).
Craig.
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Thanks, Craig. The popinjay sounds like fun. I might have to talk to the guy's in the club over here.
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http://freespace.virgin.net/neil.morris1/popinjay.html
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Eddie,
Popinjay is still quite popular in Belgium and not only do they have masts and a shelter from the falling shafts, but sometimes even have a bar attached for refreshment.
Here the popinjay is traditionally shot each year at a location where a "bird" is mounted on the church tower and they shoot to "Ding the doo."
There was an improvised popinjay at the BLBS Stoke D'Abernon Clout a few years ago, which was a military mobile mast on a small trailer with the rack for two popinjays (plastic crow decoys) fixed to the top.
It took what seemed like forever to winding it up and down (90 feet) and it was heavy work.
This did not deter FRF from showing off by shooting the bird and then turning to take a bow, at which moment the bird bounced off his head.
But no one had a camera ready. That would have been one popular image, I imagine Ted at The Glade might even have devoted a full page to it.
Clout is essentially derived from practice for holding a group with a long high trajectory shot, not a low trajectory as is currently the rule for Olympic Recurves and Compounds in GNAS competition, which specifies a low trajectory for these bows for reasons of safety.
It would be less simple, but more in keeping with the spirit of clout shooting perhaps, to place an upper limit on their draw weight and /or arrowspeed, a lower limit on their arrow weight and/or specify a very forward of centre point of balance for the shafts.
Then and only then would they also be truly clout shooting.
Or let them have their own competition with a small (36") boss as is employed at the Meriden Clout in BLBS shooting and call it "Longer Target Shooting".
Rod.
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SHOOT CANCELLATION
Hi Everyone,
Due to the general weather conditions we our experiencing across the county and more specifcally the snow forcast for the Crick area on Sunday, Jeremy and I have decided to cancel the shoot and will look forward to having in April instead. I am sure you will all understand that driving conditions are difficult at the moment and with the forcast of more snow we wouldn't want people to risk travelling.
All the best,
Alistair
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Thanks Al. I was going to email you tomorrow to see if it was still on.
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SHOOT CANCELLATION
Hi Everyone,
Due to the general weather conditions we our experiencing across the county and more specifcally the snow forcast for the Crick area on Sunday, Jeremy and I have decided to cancel the shoot and will look forward to having in April instead. I am sure you will all understand that driving conditions are difficult at the moment and with the forcast of more snow we wouldn't want people to risk travelling.
All the best,
Alistair
What? Canceling because of that piddly bit of snow? :) >:( ::)
Just kidding
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Maybe not for Canadians! :D
Much as I like history we didn't want to recreate the battle of Towton :o ;D
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Good for you guys. Who would want to play in that stuff unless it was on a beach in the Bahamas'. ;D It has been in the twenties here in Central Florida. I'm ready to come to England for the winter. :-\
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(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj7/AnLoki/_47061196_greatbritainjpg.jpg)
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The perma frost has nearly gone and I am pleased to announce that this event will take place on:
Sunday 25th April
All other details are as before.
Many thanks,
Alistair
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AH good stuff. It's in my diary
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Post scriptum,
Warning! The butts will not be real scheduled ancient monuments but made of hay bales.
I would also like to caution those that buy medieval music on CD that this will not actually have been recorded from a live session before the end of the 15th C despite what it may say on the label.:D
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Post scriptum,
Warning! The butts will not be real scheduled ancient monuments but made of hay bales.
I would also like to caution those that buy medieval music on CD that this will not actually have been recorded from a live session before the end of the 15th C despite what it may say on the label.:D
Point taken ... ;D
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Results?
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Joe Gibbs won the event and shot a whole day with 160+lb bows, very impressive. He was the only archer to hit the face of the butt, in future we will angle the face a little I think. About 4-6 archers were always getting the distance both ends with heavy arrows and in the afternoon session the number of arrows that would have scored in a rove increased a lot. A really good fun shoot that was in keeping with medieval shooting.
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(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk123/leafy_bow/Butts%202010/IMGP1523.jpg)
The winner and his trophy
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Well done Joe. Would have loved to have seen the bow he was shooting. I hope everyone who turned up had a great time.
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Post scriptum,
Warning! The butts will not be real scheduled ancient monuments, [nor would there be any attempt to make a butt of approximately mediaeval description], but made of hay bales.
I would also like to caution those that buy medieval music on CD that this will not actually have been recorded from a live session before the end of the 15th C despite what it may say on the label.:D
However the music might be actial mediaeval pieces of music recorded last month from a live session using reproduction mediaeval instruments. That's called re-enactment.
Anyway, congratulations on the shoot you had. It sounds like great fun, and I wish I could have seen it.
Cheers
Erik
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Anyway, congratulations on the shoot you had. It sounds like great fun, and I wish I could have seen it.
Cheers
Erik
Seconded. That sounds like a blast. Really nice trophy too! Was it handmade?
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Erik,
Thanks for the comments. The weather was kind this time and it was a very enjoyable shoot. I'll try a post some images.
dmassphoto,
The trophy was made by my good friend, Al. I think does look the part too. The board was English yew and had some really attractive colouration in it.
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dmassphoto,
The trophy was made by my good friend, Al. I think does look the part too. The board was English yew and had some really attractive colouration in it.
Oh cool. Even better that it was Yew. Forgive me for sounding ill informed, but what exactly is it? A shield, or a fancy decoration?
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Looks like a buckler to me.
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Yes, it's an archer's buckler.