Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: OldBow on November 30, 2009, 11:46:20 am
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There has been some concern over the use of phenolic in making bows, in this case the handle. The concern is that phenolic is not a true natural material. But we use Urac-185 and resorcinol glues in making laminated bows. These substances are absolutely not natural. Google up phenolic, Urac-185 and resorcinol and you will see what I mean. Without suitable glues, there will be no Laminate Bow of the Month entries.
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Don, I believe as long as these materials are used only as accessory(tip and handle overlays or in a built-up handle riser) and not used in the performance of the bow, they should be acceptable.
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I agree with Pat. But I have to admit I use B 50 for strings and feel pretty guilty about using the stuff on a selfbow. But just a caveat. We have to watch the steadily encroaching non natural materials in the Primitive Selfbow contest. Jawge
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If used as pat states..I to think they should be accepted.
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...so are you saying that if we use Urac 185 to glue up our bows that they cannot contend in the laminate bow of the month contest? If so that's cool just need to know of a more suitable glue to use instead. :) -josh
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Josh, that's what OldBow is asking. IMO, modern glues are acceptable. Phenolic limb lams are not!
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Laminate bows were and are made with hide glues. I don't think that substituting modern and more waterproof glues makes a difference in performance, or appearence. But, substituting high tech for working parts of the bow does seem likely to affect performance and appearance. I'm sure they make good bows, just not what this forum is about. My opinion. Ron
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I know what you gents are talking about as I was trying to find pure raw silk thread for strings and so far have not been able to find any anywhere,now if I was in India I could get it in any city,same goes for pure hise glue(pearl glue).
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Hide glue is a bit difficult to use when gluing up laminates because it gels too fast, I've done it but it is a pain. A good alternative is fish glue as it stays liquid and it is pretty strong
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I don't think that the non primitive aspect should be looked down upon so much....keep it at NO fiberglass and NO "non primitive" materials that add to bow performance...for example im sure we've all used true oil or some other kind of waterproof finish that isn't primitive but they don't add anything to the way the bow performs...in that case I think it would be ok....just my opinion...
-ky
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I agree with Pat also. If its just used cosmetically and not for performance or as part of the limbs I think it should be allowed. I would think that phenolic in the handle would be less offensive than a b50 string or tb or urac glues. Its not hard to make a bow without phenolic in the handle but its a bit more difficult to make a good hunting bow glued with hide or fish glue and a sinew string. I think the strings ,glues, and sealers we use are cheating a little bit but most seem willing to use them and its been accepted so far. I guess there could be another class added of truly primitive material bows but it would be a select few that would be willing to go that route often. I think its fine the way it is now. we all have our own personal limits beyond what pa accepts. Most people here I suspect wouldnt want to use phenolic in their bows anyways :)
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I'd also consider it a safety issue. Period pewter drinking vessels were made with leaded pewter, I'm not drinking out of those anymore, not when the "safe" pewter looks just fine. The modern glues look just fine to me as well, and have a better margin of error. You would also have to get rid of any bow that was not made out of the right combination of woods, not using the right finish (or lack there of), not using brain tanned leather, period dyes, period nocks, period shapes, etc etc. While some folks strive towards historically accurate gear, and I can only encourage/emulate that, I think the vast majority just want to keep the essence of traditional or primitive gear. Just look at the popularity of "modern American style long bows", I like them too. Unfortunately it's a bit of a blurry line unless you want a completely accurate kit. I think you would have to make a subcategory for completely period/primitive gear. I would love to see that and it would get my vote to start one, but after reading some of the BOM/best arrow back logs, I understand the logistical , and financial nightmare that posses. PA generosity towards it's readers and forum users is above average as it is. IMHO
Swamp
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uh oh, we're on the slippery slope. i could build a bow with 100% natural materials, milkweed string, and finished with bear fat. but what if i ordered the stave on the internet, used a bandsaw to rough out the bow, cut down the milkweed with my gas powered weed eater, and shot the bear with a scoped center-fire rifle (By the way i haven't done any of these things except the bandsaw part).
i agree with pat, as long as it is non-performance enhancing it is OK for laminates.
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We went through a similar issue in the official flight shooting committee which is associated with the olympics. They decided synthetic glues would be accepted as they added no performance benefit and were difficult to prove or disprove in bows. We still have to use natural strings as these bows are judged strictly on performance. I don't see where synthetic strings should be an issue where the bow itself is actually what is being judged. Phenolic or any other synthetic laminated to the bow itself I would rather see disqualified. Steve
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I agree with Badger
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When I first joined several years back we had an issue like this pop up around one of my bows...because I backed it in kevlar. Of course it's not primitive, but at the time I was mostly just wanting to find a group of people to share my new hobby with. Not to mention, that's all I had for a suitable backing. I had a lot of people, including the mods and admins here, complain because the kevlar was modern and, thus, was not to be discussed on this forum. These were all the same people who preached the use of band saws, hand planers, titebond III, etc.
Here's my beef with the situation: I could care less about performance. To me, performance is in the lumber, not the snot holding it together. My .2 mil layer of kevlar barely held the grain down. I don't have an issue with anyone using modern materials...modern materials are awesome, and you can not tell me for a second that the bowyers of centuries gone would still be using cat gut and fish spit had Titebond III been there. To me, it's all about the lumber, and the people who claim that glass and Loctite and such are "sinful", per say, should start posting up their bows made with zero modern influence (not saying some of them haven't...I just haven't seen, nor searched, for them).
I love this forum and I love seeing the things people come up with, but I have a hard time looking at this as a competition, and, thus, find such rules a little hipocritical. That's my opinion, though, not that anyone in particular asked for it.
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This site and magazine are aspirational.
IMO the general ethos should be this: Don’t be too critical of any projects that are not 100% primitive, lest it be discouraging. Rather, encourage and compliment that part that is primitive, even if it is only 5%. The notion that someone’s project is not primitive enough to discuss here, when that is the direction someone is trying to head, is arbitrary elitism. Conversely, don’t go out of your way to recommend non-primitive materials or technologies, unless they are asked for to compliment and make possible the primitive. That diminishes the value placed on the primitive, but sometimes it is necessary. For example, recommend a board if someone cannot reasonably cut down stave. But don’t criticize a bow because it is a board. Instead, applauded the tiller, etc.
Competitions are something else. They have to be exclusive, not inclusive, sometimes, but not always, arbitrarily, otherwise the drive to win pushes you down the slippery slope, not just an accidental slide, away from that which is primitive.
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I think if we go back to the begining in what brough us all together it was basicaly about wood bows. There are plenty of sights available for those who build glass bows. Has nothing to do with elitism as much as it does just building all wood bows. The word primitive I don't believe was meant to mean stoneage neccessarily as much as it just means pre fiberglass to most of us. I have always loved wood bows but never had a real deep seated interest in primitive per say. I know many that feel like I do. Steve
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Well, I'm really on the edge with this one. Particularly on the laminate aspect. I use hide glue for all my glue ups, wether it be attaching a handle, tip overlays and especially for laminating. I have used epoxys in the past for laminates, but I never had as good results as using the hide glue (Just my personal experience and preference)
Epoxies (in my humble opinion) are not far from fiberglass. They are basically resin without the glass attached.
I think if wer'e talking primitive, the question we need to ask ourselves is "Could you build it if you were in the wild, using only what you could aquire from the wild."
In a survival situation, you won't find any epoxies.
Yet, having said that,my hipocracy shines through in the fact that I use Helsman's varnish to finish and protect my bows, and I have never made a primitive string yet. Although, in a survival situation, I probably wouldn't worry about the varnish, and we all know, there are primitive materials available in the wild to make strings from.
Although I can respect the fine craftmanship of the weapons being produced on this site,
I think there should be a category for those who go through the extra effort and details to create truly "primitive" equipment.
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I think if we go back to the begining in what brough us all together it was basicaly about wood bows. There are plenty of sights available for those who build glass bows. Has nothing to do with elitism as much as it does just building all wood bows. The word primitive I don't believe was meant to mean stoneage neccessarily as much as it just means pre fiberglass to most of us. I have always loved wood bows but never had a real deep seated interest in primitive per say. I know many that feel like I do. Steve
I agree with you more than not, but I did have a question: Where are you finding these "plent of sites" concerning other varieties of bows? There's some general hunting forums, and a few craftsy sites I've found, but nothing really dedicated toward glass/kevlar bows that I've seen. I'm not talking about competition forums, though...just normal plain-jane people whipping stuff up in their spare time. Of course I'll post all of my creations here (there wasn't an "anything else" section when I first joined I don't recall), but still I wonder. I'm currently building a 160lb split beam fiberglass take-down that I will love to show off when done.
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i agree with badger, the key word is WOOD.
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First of all I don't know why anyone would want to use anything other than natural materials for making their bows. In any case rule #3 is clear and as Steve said, there are plenty of other sites that like to talk about glass and carbon fiber
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I think there should be a category for those who go through the extra effort and details to create truly "primitive" equipment.
I believe this is a WONDERFUL suggestion.
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First of all I don't know why anyone would want to use anything other than natural materials for making their bows. In any case rule #3 is clear and as Steve said, there are plenty of other sites that like to talk about glass and carbon fiber
#3 says no post-industrial materials yet we have no issues with titebond? Playing devil's advocate, I suppose, since I don't care what's used in the way of glues...it's just that mentality that always bothers me.
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I think some of you are making way more out of this than needs. Who is going to be the PRIMITIVE POLICE?
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For those of us who have been progressing backwards in this hobby it can be a long and gradual path...
Many started with glass recurves in the 60's and 70's built by others and now we are whittling wooden bows of our own.
The fact that we use some power tools don't make the bows less "primitive"... the tools save us time, a commodity that some of us folks have less of these days.
For those who want to, dust off the old Hatchet Bow Challenge from MOJAM and build a bow with no bench,vise or other tools. Just the hatchet...
It is a real learning experiance and fun too. Oh, and BTW, cutting the strands to make the string with a hatchet is NOT that easy...
Don't try to catch a dropped hatchet... ;)
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I think there should be a category for those who go through the extra effort and details to create truly "primitive" equipment.
I believe this is a WONDERFUL suggestion.
Jamie used to post a few stone bows every now and then. There have been a few others posted also over the years. If we had a separate category for truly "primitive" as you call it, we would have no bows to choose from way to often.
I think Badger has explained the spirit of the law really well. If it adds performance it is out. Modern glues have always been allowed because they don't add performance. Materials that are added to the back are meant to keep the bow from blowing so they should be natural.
We aren't trying to be elitists. Most of us just have absolutely no desire to sort through 10 fiberglass bows to look at the wood bows. If we wanted to see the FG stuff I would go to those sites.
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If it adds performance it is out.
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Sinew adds performance....you can't call it a self backed bow but it should still be considered ok since its been in use for thousands of years
-Ky
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Well let me jump in here since I am probably the one this is all about. I think Dano is right... way to much being made about this! As for the original post from Don, this is about phenolic in the handle ( non working part of the bow.) and epoxies that we use. Not backings..
I have no problem taking my bows to other sites, and I do most of the time. But I have really enjoyed being a part of the PA family, as much as I can anyway. I do have to say there is a lot of hypocrisy here though.
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Okie1, I was really upset when they said your bow wasn't going to be the laminate BOM contest because of the handle laminations. But Im really glad to see it there now
-Ky
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Jamie used to post a few stone bows every now and then. There have been a few others posted also over the years. If we had a separate category for truly "primitive" as you call it, we would have no bows to choose from way to often.
Sadly, you are correct. I would still love to see some dedication to real primitive bows.
We aren't trying to be elitists. Most of us just have absolutely no desire to sort through 10 fiberglass bows to look at the wood bows. If we wanted to see the FG stuff I would go to those sites.
I also understand this, but it would be nice if people who wanted to post hybrid bows wouldn't be "shunned", as it were. I mean, I'm still going to post my 80%+ wood bows here in this section...anything else I'll post in the "anything else" section (which is why we have that section, I believe...I saw pulleys in there earlier today). Then there's just crazy things like my bronze backed bow (another project I'm working on)...where will I be able to post that? lol
I do repeat my earlier question, though: I have found no other forums as dedicated to bowyery as this one while being as active and having as many friendly members. I would appreciate links.
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Hipocracy is the cornerstone of human nature!
Unfortunately, there will probably never be a " strictly primitive " category, because those that create strictly primitive gear are greatly outnumered.
Instead of seeing a seperate category for strictly primitive gear as being a logical and interesting inclusion to "primitive archer", it seems to be met with fierce opposition.
There's nothing threatening or difficult about it. It doesn't need to be "policed". The criteria isn't that difficult to comprehend. If you were living as your ancestors did, Could you build that bow using nothing but natural materials?
No one is suggesting outlawing the use of modern power tools or adhesives.Just that those who do create strictly primitive, a.k.a. all natural equiptment should be afforded the same chance as those who build their bows with the best exotic woods money can buy, and the strongest commercially available glues.
They are all beautiful creations on this site, there's no denying that. And the craftmanship is unsurpassed! But,,, let's be realistic,, I am at a failure to comprehend why there is such a problem with this concept??
I have read many threads on this forum lately, where difference of opinion, or more accurately,"I'm right and you're wrong" has turned into small battles that have concluded in rudeness and even name calling.
This is happening because people can't see past their own noses to see the point of others. (I'm not excluding myself here, there are many times that I've not been able to see past my own nose,,,but then, my nose is exceptionally long!
The whole problem with this is that it stands in the way of natural, healthy progression.
If we were as eager to bend as well as the bows we create instead of snapping back like the same bows,,,,Hmmmm, endless possibilities!
Personally I believe a seperate category for all natural bows would inspire more of us to try new things and subsequently, learn a lot more!
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Personally I believe a seperate category for all natural bows would inspire more of us to try new things and subsequently, learn a lot more!
Well said, I agree completely.
Swamp
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Personally I believe a seperate category for all natural bows would inspire more of us to try new things and subsequently, learn a lot more!
Well said, I agree completely.
Swamp
The really sad part of this conversation is that when one of these stone built bows is posted, it usually gets very few votes. In stead people vote for the pretty one. I suggest that if you feel strongly about the stone bows you vote for them not the other. I remember when Jamie posted one built by his 13 year old with nothing but stone tools. It got about 4 votes out of 100.
If it adds performance it is out.
Sinew adds performance....you can't call it a self backed bow but it should still be considered ok since its been in use for thousands of years
-Ky
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Sinew is natural, the current conversation doesn't apply.
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Besides all wood "primitive" bows, both self & laminate, I also make FG R/D bows... I just don't post any of them here.
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I never understood the argument that if the Indians had "XXX" they would have used it. The whole point of going primative, wherever you draw the line, is to get away from some of the newer technology and appreciate how the ancestors crafted...at least in my opinion.
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I admit that I had to look up phenolic,Phenolic sheet is usually made by impregnating a core material, such as paper or fabric, with the resin and then catalyzing it.
personally I prefer the look of natural wood or organic material in my bows,I have seen this same argument in the flyfishing world and trout parks.A flie is constructed on a single point hook with fur feathers or chenille .Then somebody invented the gummy minnow plastic/rubber bodied minnow on a single point hook,it didn't set to well ! Especial in our trout parks ,the sign said Flyfishing only,but I should be able to use my rubber bodied/plastic baits in your fishing hole. I have seen the conservation agents right a lot of citations for that to. Primitive Archery,wood bows ,but I should be able to use plastic in my bows to,I have heard people run others down for using duct tape to back a bow ,fiberglass tape etc, but then again we use plastic knocks ,carbon fiber arrows,vinyl fletches ,synthetic coatings and adhesives.
( I like my all wood rawhide backed bows with natural knock overlays and risers or wood bamboo backed bows)
Dennis
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"The really sad part of this conversation is that when one of these stone built bows is posted, it usually gets very few votes. In stead people vote for the pretty one. I suggest that if you feel strongly about the stone bows you vote for them not the other. I remember when Jamie posted one built by his 13 year old with nothing but stone tools. It got about 4 votes out of 100."
This only proves my point!! " that those who do create strictly primitive, a.k.a. all natural equiptment should be afforded the same chance as those who build their bows with the best exotic woods money can buy, and the strongest commercially available glues."
All natural bows don't have to made using just a stone! I'm sure the Mongolians used more than just a stone to construct those wonderful composite bows! I'm not referring to just "stone age" weapons!
I'm reffering to bows that are made "All Natural!". No epoxy glues on laminates ect.!
Nothing wrong with using the finest woods you can import or using Urac, titebond ect, But it is a modern construction and should be judged seperate from all natural bows. You can't compare the two categories. The "pretty bow will always win! I love the bows I see on this site, they are beautiful,
But!! where do the boweyers who take the extra initiative to create bows from all natural materials go to get any credit for what they do if they can't compete with the modern construction bows on "PrimitiveArchery? because everyone likes the "pretty" bows?
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I get a kick out of advise to use super glue to seal up cracks. but it works!
BTW, I have sinew being sent to me from Alaska from the moose I helped get back to the cabin/airstrip.
Pic is of processing moose in a snow storm:
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I never understood the argument that if the Indians had "XXX" they would have used it. The whole point of going primative, wherever you draw the line, is to get away from some of the newer technology and appreciate how the ancestors crafted...at least in my opinion.
If they did have it and used it, then it would be primitive to us, but they didn't, so it isn't.
And YES!! learning and respecting the way of our ancestors is a most noble goal!
So much has been lost! Invaluable information that can never be retrieved again. Whole races whose artistry and even religions and languages have been destroyed. O.K, I'm going to stop now, I'm getting into an area that is all too personal to me. (not to mention, that it"s bordering on becoming politcal, and we don't want to go there!)
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The really sad part of this conversation is that when one of these stone built bows is posted, it usually gets very few votes. In stead people vote for the pretty one. I suggest that if you feel strongly about the stone bows you vote for them not the other. I remember when Jamie posted one built by his 13 year old with nothing but stone tools. It got about 4 votes out of 100.
I won't argue with that. I'm still really new here, so I really haven't gotten into BOM other than to go through past winners to see what is out there. I've wanted to see what I was getting into and get educated before casting votes. A separate category might help with that, it might help point out that a bow was made the "hard" way. If there are that few entries, perhaps a Primitive Semiannual Bow (PSB?) would work until more people started making more bows that fit. Thank you for pointing out that bow, it's great. The other problem is that until 2-3 months ago, I would not have understood what i was looking at (perhaps I still don't and won't until I do it myself). Special recognition such a BOM would certainly bring amazing bring work like that to more peoples attention, and get them to really understand. I'm a potter, my passion is really crusty wood fired work (to look at), and historic reproductions of salt glazed Rhenish stoneware. Many people look at my work and say "gee it's all brown or those are funny shapes?", it's my job to educate them or point them in the correct direction, when they come back it's like they see my work for the first time.
Again I know how much extra work it would be for the staff, but it would be nice. Wishful thinking. :)
Swamp
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"A separate category might help with that, it might help point out that a bow was made the "hard" way. If there are that few entries, perhaps a Primitive Semiannual Bow (PSB?) would work until more people started making more bows that fit. Thank you for pointing out that bow, it's great. The other problem is that until 2-3 months ago, I would not have understood what i was looking at (perhaps I still don't and won't until I do it myself). Special recognition such a BOM would certainly bring amazing bring work like that to more peoples attention, and get them to really understand. "
Another fine point!
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I look at the laminate bows different than self or naturally backed bows. I still view them as organic, because they are not covered in FG, but I wouldn't be offended if there was something non organic in the handle or on the limb tips. As long as it doesn't get carried away and the natural element doesn't get lost in the process.
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I get a kick out of advise to use super glue to seal up cracks. but it works!
BTW, I have sinew being sent to me from Alaska from the moose I helped get back to the cabin/airstrip.
Pic is of processing moose in a snow storm:
Hi Oldbow, I'm not picking on ya, this is just a great example...
I look at that picture and first I think "Wow, that must have been an incredible experience!", I didn't even notice the bright blue poly tarp until later in the viewing. I had an art professor (whom I might add became a dear friend), explain to me how he looks at a work of art. He basically said the first thing he looks for is that "wow factor", and he reserves the right to use that wow factor as a reason for liking an art work. It doesn't matter what the media, who, what, when, or where. It could be dried cafeteria chocolate pudding that was finger painted on an old shoe. It's got to move him first. Then he goes though and analyzes the work. When I look at a bow (or whatever) it has to make me say wow first, for whatever reason that may be. It could be pretty, it could look like a meat maker, it could look like an artifact, it could be meticulous, or a myriad of other reasons. It might even make me think I could actually build one of those. Then I go through and look at the details. If the maker used nothing but period tools, it often tends to put the piece in a higher category for me. Keeping in mind sloppy work with period tools is still sloppy work and tight work with machinery is still tight work. Now is a compound bow that someone engineered and manufactured down to the decimal place on their own any better than a well made home center board bow? Not in my book, it isn't less of a bow either. I'm still going to say "wow" even if I'm not a compound bow guy. Then I look to see if the compound has a good job of cleaning up mill marks, is the color scheme nice, is it comfortable in the hand, etc.? Is the board bow smoothed nicely, how is the tiller, will it last more than five shots? But I think it would be unfair to compare the two. Some people will always vote compound, there are more of them than traditional shooters (not on this site I expect). So going back to your picture, very cool, "wow". Now if it had been someone else (or you) who shot it with a NA bow, wearing a period kit (hunter, not the moose ;D), being dressed out in a period shelter, using period tools, I would say "WOW!", even if it was a smaller moose. I'd still feel that way even it it was a rabbit not a moose. Now I'd bet "harvest of the month" would go to your moose, not the rabbit. I expect many would just dismiss another dime a dozen rabbit unless they really understood what was so special about that rabbit, only a few would notice said rabbit book marked between moose. Again not diminishing your hunt, not at all, that is the stuff of dreams. With all due respect.
Swamp
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Yeah, I noticed the blue tarp too. But mostly it reminded me of the year I spent living in the Yukon. ( Whitehorse ), That was some beautiful country! I remember the northern lights looking so close,,,like you could just reach up and touch them! Man, that was some life experience! Thanks for the memories!!
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If your looking to level the playing field by making another catagory in the BOM, it ain't gonna work. People only vote for their favorite, or purty presentation, it doesn't have a thing to do with tools, time, materials or creativity. I do agree tho, showcasing a bow made with stone tools is cool, been done a few times, but still cool.
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If your looking to level the playing field by making another catagory in the BOM, it ain't gonna work. People only vote for their favorite, or purty presentation, it doesn't have a thing to do with tools, time, materials or creativity. I do agree tho, showcasing a bow made with stone tools is cool, been done a few times, but still cool.
Agreed, you will never take politics out of Washington. At least those bows would compete on the same footing. Well I've rambled enough. Bottom line is if all of the bows are in the same category, I don't think using a modern adhesive should be penalized. But if there would be a period only (not necessarily stone aged, could be medieval, NA etc.) class, then yes I think period glues or a reasonable facsimile would be appropriate. That could be taken to extremes of course, not every one has access to wood X grown in Y part of the world, or the swimbladders of virgin sturgeon for making glue. Got me where the line would be.
Swamp
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Did someone mention up above that they were working on a bow backed with bronze? I just have to see that one. Where else would someone discuss such an idea as that but here? It might even get my vote for laminate bow of the month! :) If it wasn't for people trying things like that this hobby would get pretty monotonous in a hurry. I am pretty sure that the primitive bowyer often saw it this same way.
Who knows? Someday, an archeologist might discover a site with all these bronze leafs laying around and wonder what it could be? Then, they'll see bronze backed bow of the month and it will make perfect sense. Hahahaha!
Generally, I agree with what Badger said except that I would substitute "natural material" for wood.
-Alan
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The line would be "all natural" materials. The only time you would need to be concerned with what wood and glue to use would be if you you were doing an exact authentic replica (museum quality) of a specific type of bow.
I'm working on my own version of a horsebow right now. It won't be finished for a while yet, but I am going to keep it all natural. It'll be interesting to see what the results are.Maybe I'll "pretty it up"a bit. Nothing says an all natural bow can't be pretty right? Some of those replicas on the Atarn site are pretty elaborate!
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One of the things that I do like about bow of the month is that there is no criteria. This can also be a curse. I like to think of it as accomplishment of the month. There are a few bowyers here I hold to a higher standard for instance. If a bow is made with stone tools I will always consider it closely but it still has to be well made. A bow made with stone tools can be as nice as a bow made with steel tools. I try to look very closely at first year bowyers for instance. ut each and every voter can set his own criteria. Steve
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Get out the pop corn. ;) ;D ;D ;D This comes up every year at least once and it is always interesting
to hear all the different views. :)
Pappy
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Did someone mention up above that they were working on a bow backed with bronze?
1/32" sheeting. Glued and riveted to the lumber.
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I agree with Pappy, except it's not all the different views. It is usually the same ones, just a different name. If we had a different catagory for primitive, then next month when somebody that felt slighted, we'd have to have a "slighted" catagory. Where does it stop? All wood is ALL wood.
And, Phenolic tip overlays does help with performance. It allows you to use Fastflight string without cutting the wood, when you could use horn or a harder wood.
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I think context matters.
In the context of BOM, it's a popularity contest so I don't get where performance is an issue. I don't mean this as a criticism, and not like a "beauty contest" for the bowyer. Rather a particular bow might be appealing to more voters for any number of reasons other than performance. In fact the one bow I've made that I recall winning BOM looked really purty with walnut overlays and such and an nice symetrical tiller, but it actually doesn't shoot as well even as most of my other, considerably more humble or "ugly" projects. I've always been amused by the irony of this.
In another context I think it's important for some to carve out a niche in this business to differentiate product, and pa and paleo try to draw a distinct line in what in reality is a shades of grey question. There will always be a spectrum of intestest and experience. It's probably more important to embrace the "big tent" than to further segregate an already small community. After all, how much different is a bow designed by formula, by computer computation actually, created entirely by use of precision machine tooled lams and epoxy from a conventionally trial and error tillered simple composite w/ a strip of phelonic in the handle, for our purposes here. Don't we value conventional methods, as well as materials, at least to some degree.
For what it's worth, I don't see the use of phelonic as having has any reason or purpose or justification other than aesthetics, and as such barring it from use in the context of PA and it's BOM as not being much of a burden. If such a restriction, in particular retroactively, creates some inequity for one individual one time, then grant a waiver... or better yet just let the voting in BOM reconcile it's relative value or appeal.
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maby make a new class? all primative bow of the month? ???
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maby make a new class? all primative bow of the month? ???
It's been mentioned a few times in this thread already. I agree that it would be a great thing, but I also sadly agree that participation would be minimal...the staff is trying to keep the community closer together, not picked apart further.
On a completely unrelated note (I didn't want to start a whole new thread over such a small idea...feel free to ignore), I think it would be a great contest to check one's ingenuity. Do a contest where people have to build a functioning bow made entirely from obscure things...like cardboard, or items you can only purchase at a 7/11.
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It comes down to this, there isn't enough participation for a new category. All of you guys that want one need to make the bows. When we get 6 per month maybe we can justify. Ill bet nobody that wants the new category makes a bow like this this year. ::)
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It is quite interesting , disscusing primitive standards, what is and isn,t primitive on a computer, which is as unprimitive as it gets, so anyone involved isnt fanatic about primitive or even very primitive or they wouldnt be here!, balance and moderation in all things is my philosophy( just to throw in my bit),if the primitives had epoxy or fibreglass or any thing for that matter they would use what was easiest and worked best , guaranteed, So maybe the fibreglass guys are the true primitives, with their attitude of using what works best >:D > A;so every thing is from the earth ultimately, just mixed up in different ways so it is even hard to draw the line where primitive ends, but I'm just trying to be clever, best to ignore me ;D
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The functionality of said elements as apposed to the specified origin of the materials deployed in construction are of consequential importance. One might devise perimeters
based solely on the functionality acquired through employment of post industrial manifestations. The use of an alloy containing apparatus to aid in rapid tillerization appears to contradict the validity concerning the claim of primitivity. One might acquire contempt towards otherwise seemingly acceptable methods and ingredients based on deliberation brought forth from respected piers and not rooted in ones own guidelines of acceptability. Any attempt to reconstruct the conditions in which our predecessors acquired sustenance through production of weaponry might simply be summarized as game play. While lines ultimately must be drawn the game must remain desirable as not to discourage participation. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
JOKING!!!!!!!!
Sorry I was just messing around. I'm quite sure it makes no sense at all. I made up a few words as well. Hope you got a laugh ;D
Like Pappy said. This comes up a lot and I'm sure I've chimed in enough on both sides. Gonna go get some popcorn now :).
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Jesse, I am sure glad you said you were kidding. I was starting to think that we were taking this thread way too serious LOL. Good one! Steve
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hillbillync/Other%20Stuff/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hillbillync/Other%20Stuff/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v325/hillbillync/Other%20Stuff/smilies/beatdeadhorse.gif)
All this has been said, done, and gone over a hundred times over the years. All of us are never gonna agree on every aspect of bowyery or what is "primitive," but you can get so tied up in worrying about the details and definitions that you forget to have fun, which is why most of us are doing this to begin with. The criteria for this forum was set long ago for just these reasons-all natural materials except for glue and string-no glass, no plastic, no carbon, etc. There has to be a compromise point and a line drawn somewhere and I don't think that it's going to be in a better place no matter how many times we go over and over this same topic. We could split up into a hundred "niche" forums where there are three people who think exactly alike on each, but I think we would be making a mistake in doing so-I tend to believe that one of the main advantages of this forum is the diversity of members and types of handiwork they produce.
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;D ;D its one thing to beat a dead horse but do they have to do it over and over in that same spot.
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(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f159/RaulMonkey/Animated/beating-a-dead-horse.gif)
I founded one too. LOL
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Jesse, I am sure glad you said you were kidding. I was starting to think that we were taking this thread way too serious LOL. Good one! Steve
ha ha Yeah this thread needed to lighten up a bit :) Good one Josh :)
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"The criteria for this forum was set long ago for just these reasons-all natural materials except for glue and string-no glass, no plastic, no carbon, etc.
"Hillbilly, I accept these rules, but are they posted anywhere... I can't find them. If these rules are posted please tell me where. I would play by them if they were accessible. Feel free to remove my bow from this forum. But it was your own moderators that moved it back. So I say PA needs to set some rules and stick to them. And no everyone is not going to agree, but at least the Mods of this site should.
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I feel strongly both ways. I changed my mind (the wind must have starting blowing from the other direction). LOL. I agree with Hillbilly. No plastic, fiberglass or any unnatural materials allowed on bows. Synthetic finishes, synthetic strings, power tools and modern glues are grudgingly allowed. :) Jawge
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"The criteria for this forum was set long ago for just these reasons-all natural materials except for glue and string-no glass, no plastic, no carbon, etc.
"Hillbilly, I accept these rules, but are they posted anywhere... I can't find them. If these rules are posted please tell me where. I would play by them if they were accessible. Feel free to remove my bow from this forum. But it was your own moderators that moved it back. So I say PA needs to set some rules and stick to them. And no everyone is not going to agree, but at least the Mods of this site should.
The rules are posted in a sticky at the top of each forum...
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,95.0.html
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Yea I know where the rules are posted, but not the specific rules Hillbilly stated. Rule #3 states there is to be no discussion of post industrial materials. WOW this topic should have been locked a long time ago. And................... never mind ::).
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Some threads are VERY strange and irritating...! ??? ??? ???
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Rule #3 states:
“Topics and posts should be related to primitive archery in some way. If you want to discuss other topics in life there are plenty of other places on the internet you can go. This place is about primitive archery. Discussions on the use of post-industrial materials (yes that means FG) is not allowed here.”
The rule is poorly written, misunderstood and arbitrary enforced.
It does not say anything about glue or string. All kinds of bows could “be related to primitive archery in some way” and yet still involved “the use of post-industrial materials” and fiberglass in particular.
But the arbitrary enforcement is the worst part. I’m not saying that glue or string would be a bad rule, and I’m not saying that glass laminate bows should generally not be discussed.
But look at this build along: Re: Fiberglass takedown sleeve http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,8511.0.html
There Mullet Global Moderator stated: “This is a good build-along. This is exactly the way it was done in the article in a back issue of Primitive Archer.”
I’m sure Mullet is correct and I am not criticizing him for his comment. It is not something that I want to read about, but so what. An otherwise wood bow should be allowed here.
There is a very good reason this thread keeps coming up. And that is because it is what this site and magazine is about.
There is a very good reason that the treads get very long and contentious. It is because, as I said, the rule is poorly written, misunderstood and arbitrary enforced.
To put my last comment, above on p. 2 I think, in other words. Before the moderators exclude comments or even make comments, think about keeping and expanding the subscription base of the magazine and using honey instead of vinegar. Or at least one consistently.
"Topics and posts should be related to primitive archery in some way." I like that. That is what I look for, not "Topics and posts must be exclusively about primitive archery, as I like to define it, to the exclusion of all else, unless I like it."
YMMV
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Very well said!
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Wolf, I understand your point and it does make sense. Years ago this never came up as an issue. Everyone just kind of understould it was about wood bows. Basicaly the limbs were all wood or natural. I think as long as the limbs are all natural you won't hear too much complaining. When it coomes to BOM I guess maybe they might have to get more specific. But in general I think it works well as it is. If the bow limbs remain all natural we will never get too far off base.
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I don't think there is anything wrong wiyh using modern glues and such, and particularly the bow in question that started this thread. If it was a non-bending handle, then it doesn't affect the performance of the bow. My point was only to observe the fact that there should be seperate considerations for those who make all natural bows. Unfortunatly, as it has been pointed out, there isn't enough of these bows being constructed to warrant a seperate category. I am a little surprised at that, but the reasoning does seem logical.
It has been mentioned on here that there is doubt that even one primitive (all natural) bow will be constructed and displayed on this site in the next year.
Well, for those who like their "primitive bows", and are in defense of them, this should read as a challenge!...I'm taking the challenge! I'm building one! Further more, I challenge other "defenders" to do the same! Let's get the ball rolling! It's easy to have convictions when they don't cost you anything!
Here's my personal criteria for an "all natural" bow ( each person needs to determine their own criteria, based on what they like and need.)
For me,, this is it:
Must be short as possible because I hunt brush.
Must be at least 50# for hunting.
must be fast and accurate for a clean kill.
And, lastly, it must be "pretty" to give it a chance in the competition.
Any takers on this challenge??
If so, Be sure to post your personal criteria for the design of your bow.
Remember though,,,NO MODERN MATERIALS! Wood, hide glue, sinew, cotton, silk, rawhide ect.
LET"S HAVE SOME FUN!! As well as standing up to our convictions!
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In the chronicles and diaries of Lewis and Clark they talk about a native American that had a steel bow apparently made from a wagon hoop. Now thats called stirring the pot >:D But if this is a real issue put it to vote like we do the bow of the month you all did vote right ifn not vote for my son.Ifn its about politics then I am campaigning for my son.
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"Here's my personal criteria for an "all natural" bow ( each person needs to determine their own criteria, based on what they like and need.)
For me,, this is it:
Must be short as possible because I hunt brush.
Must be at least 50# for hunting.
must be fast and accurate for a clean kill.
And, lastly, it must be "pretty" to give it a chance in the competition.
Any takers on this challenge?"
Yeah, I'll take that challenge, I make a few short pretty bows that shoot 525 grain arras at 198 fps. I only use a stone drawknife to build em too. O:)
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Sounds cool, where did you get that stone drawknife? Iv'e been looking all over for one. Can't find one at lowe's or Home depot!
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In the chronicles and diaries of Lewis and Clark they talk about a native American that had a steel bow apparently made from a wagon hoop.
Indians (Asian) have a rich history of Steel Bows.
(http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/items/29/002429/ph-0.jpg)
This one's a take down! ;D
http://www.antiqobay.com/product_desc.php?id=322
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Cool bow!!
Shadow Walker, I was lying >:D But I know a few knappers that could make me a stone drawknife if I need.
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Yeah, I knew you were kidding, but it would be cool!, however, primitive doesn't neccasarily mean stone age.Metal has been around for a few centuries. I wonder what kind of performance could be expected from that metal bow?
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Those Indian bows are so cool. But I don't know what is more interesting, the steel limbs or the loose fiber string.
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I had an antique steel bow. Manufactured in the USA I believe. Traded it to Eddie. After shooting the steel bow the only reason I can see to make one is if your out of wood. ;D not a great performer at all. Looks cool though
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I had an antique steel bow. Manufactured in the USA I believe. Traded it to Eddie. After shooting the steel bow the only reason I can see to make one is if your out of wood. ;D not a great performer at all. Looks cool though
I suspect that their performance was not meaured by a chronometer. ;D I have a vague recollection of reading about other advantages, but I certainly cannot attest to them. It might have just been the social advantage of looks, which I would not discount for a prince, but I think production factors and or durability are more likely. It definately would not be my first choice for hunting that is for sure.
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here i bet some of these might perform decent
not primitive,but old none the less
(http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1919/1000935k.jpg)
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There's enough steel there to build leaf springs for your truck, or you could cut them up and make some mighty fine spring steel rapier blades!. I like the short recurve to the far right though!
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thanks for the pic sailor. If anyone's interested, thats at the pope and young museum in chatfield, MN. you can't believe the stuff they have packed in there, it s a great place.
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I've got a bow exactly like the one fifth from the left. It's light but a cool little bow. It's called a Seefab Diana, made in Sweden.
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mine was the second to the left. very slow :)
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Funny how a thread about non primitive materials turned into showing steel bows ;D I see this getting moved to anything else shortly :)
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Jesse, you know it will switch to food sooner or later....;D And the reason that we don't have a twenty-page set of itemized rules resembling a tax booklet or summons for a paternity suit (with bullet points, subparagraphs, sheaves of fine print and 8x10 glossy photographs with notations on the backs) is simply that we don't need them-we like simple stuff, that's why we make wooden bows. Most members don't need that-we are a wooden bow site, and common sense and reading the general flow of things over a period of time should tell anyone who pays attention pretty much what is acceptable and unacceptable. There are only a couple people I've ever seen in all my years here who wanted to constantly argue and nitpick about the details of the rules instead of talk about archery. (not talking about you Okie-you're definitely not one of them.) It's not like we're going to come to your house and shoot you in the kneecaps if you post a bow backed with a strip of Goodyear Wrangler A/T radial, anyway. :D
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It's not like we're going to come to your house and shoot you in the kneecaps if you post a bow backed with a strip of Goodyear Wrangler A/T radial, anyway. :D
Hmm... I wonder if used tire will work for a bow backing.... Got my cogs turning with that one Hillbilly! ;D -josh
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I wouldn't use a radial. Bias-ply all the way.
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Being a moderator is a tough job. Sometimes we have to trust them to do the right thing. Ole Jawge trusts the Mod Squad and y'all are doing a great job. This is an excellent site. I like being able to come here and help people build selfbows. It's the way I relax. Thank you for the job you are doing. :) Jawge
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Being a moderator is a tough job. Sometimes we have to trust them to do the right thing.
I agree 100% Jawge! I too moderate on another site and it can be a pain in the arrs. The mods here do a great job and I appreciate them letting my bow participate in the BOM fun contest. Even though it doesn't have a chance against all the great bows entered this month. But it's still fun and that's what it's all about!!!
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Ah Hillbilly and food here we go! At least with a steel bow you can spear some fine vinison back straps on it and slow roast it over a hard wood fire boy I can smell it now .And not worry about burning your bow up. Anybody have some Kansas city master piece sauce.
Dennis
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Being a moderator is a tough job. Sometimes we have to trust them to do the right thing. Ole Jawge trusts the Mod Squad and y'all are doing a great job. This is an excellent site. I like being able to come here and help people build selfbows. It's the way I relax. Thank you for the job you are doing. :) Jawge
Thanks George :'(
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Thanks, Jawge. Jesse, I have that same, Tru-Value bow, but I bought it at the Flea market for $8. I think when I posted asking if anybody had seen one you posted a picture of yours.
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Justin and Mullet, you are very welcome and thank you! Jawge
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Thanks, Jawge. :) Eddie, a friend of mine used to have an old steel recurve that pulled about 75#, I don't know what brand it was, but he took it to a shoot one time and stuck an aluminum arrow up to the feathers in a 5" diameter hickory tree. It's still there, I guess. :)
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Jesse, you know it will switch to food sooner or later....;D And the reason that we don't have a twenty-page set of itemized rules resembling a tax booklet or summons for a paternity suit (with bullet points, subparagraphs, sheaves of fine print and 8x10 glossy photographs with notations on the backs) is simply that we don't need them-we like simple stuff, that's why we make wooden bows. Most members don't need that-we are a wooden bow site, and common sense and reading the general flow of things over a period of time should tell anyone who pays attention pretty much what is acceptable and unacceptable. There are only a couple people I've ever seen in all my years here who wanted to constantly argue and nitpick about the details of the rules instead of talk about archery. (not talking about you Okie-you're definitely not one of them.) It's not like we're going to come to your house and shoot you in the kneecaps if you post a bow backed with a strip of Goodyear Wrangler A/T radial, anyway. :D
So much of that is so true. I cannot believe how long those rules are. :-\
Speaking of Indians. I'm making mulligatawny soup out of Thanksgiving leftovers ... and a bunny backed mini-naga with a 28" nodeless boo "string" made from an Easter basket. I hope I can tiller it out and thin up the string. But, ya know, there is no wood in it. ;D That last PA issue with the boo bow is what finally convinced me to string up what was basically scrap and make that string. Not too many pix of that type of nock, but I found a couple on the net here and there for examples.
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i264/wolfsirebella/100_0565.jpg)
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i264/wolfsirebella/100_0562.jpg)
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Jesse, you know it will switch to food sooner or later....;D And the reason that we don't have a twenty-page set of itemized rules resembling a tax booklet or summons for a paternity suit (with bullet points, subparagraphs, sheaves of fine print and 8x10 glossy photographs with notations on the backs) is simply that we don't need them-we like simple stuff, that's why we make wooden bows. Most members don't need that-we are a wooden bow site, and common sense and reading the general flow of things over a period of time should tell anyone who pays attention pretty much what is acceptable and unacceptable. There are only a couple people I've ever seen in all my years here who wanted to constantly argue and nitpick about the details of the rules instead of talk about archery. (not talking about you Okie-you're definitely not one of them.) It's not like we're going to come to your house and shoot you in the kneecaps if you post a bow backed with a strip of Goodyear Wrangler A/T radial, anyway. :D
Well maybe a bit more than just a couple :)
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mulligatawny is one of my favorite soups.