Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: MaceG on November 14, 2009, 03:41:33 am
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Come on, guys, give 'em up.
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Mission Impossible!!! ;D
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Assuming the bow started out with a little reflex to be lost during tillering, the only bows I've had come out straight were ones that weren't overstressed. Of course, I did have a few that had a bunch of reflex come out almost straight, but they came in way under weight :P
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Yeah, the only bows I have made with ZERO stringfollow (the count now is 2 ;D ) were induced with around 2-3 inches of reflex after the floor tiller stage. All the rest of my bows have around 1-1/2 to 2 inches of string follow which doesn't bother me one friggin bit. :) -josh
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There is really no secret, just start out with enough reflex to counteract the set, if you want a flat unstrung profile, easier said than done. You still have to do a good job tillering, not to stress one area too much, and the stave has to be dry, and kept dry. Set is inevitable. Every bow has string follow after it is unstrung.
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String follow is when the bow actually looks like it is strung when it is not. Not all bows may have string follow. All bows take set. If a stave has 3 in of reflex and the bow ends up with 2 inches then the bow has 2 inches of set and no string follow. I basically baby a bow to be. When long string tillering I don't pull more than 5# over final target weight. I even check weight with the long string. When I get target weight at 10 in I string it up. That puts me at 10# over target weight. Once strung, I never draw it to full target weight until I hit 1 inch less than my draw. Then at my draw I have sanding room. If I get less than 2 in of set I 'm happy. BTW set results from belly collapse. Set happens. :) Jawge
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Jawge, I gotta argue with ya here. All bows have string follow after being unstrung, after some time to relax that follow will go away, but you can't expect a bow to bend and not get some string follow. I don't like to confuse string follow with set.
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Jawge, I gotta argue with ya here. All bows have string follow after being unstrung, after some time to relax that follow will go away, but you can't expect a bow to bend and not get some string follow. I don't like to confuse string follow with set.
I've had bows, even heavy weight ones jsut after a shooting session, unstring and stand straight- no string follow.
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I guess I'm just old and set in my ways, oh yeah stuburn too. ;D
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Set: Permanent deflection of the limbs toward the archer, resulting from compression of belly wood beyond its elastic limit. Set and string follow are not the same..
String Follow: Where by set, design, or deflex in the stave, an unbraced bow’s tips rest some distance bellyward of the back. Usually the result of set.
The first step is knowing the difference between set and string follow. Keeping these straight in you head is the hardest part of the whole endeavour. With a little reflex to start it is possible to prevent string follow, but it is impossible to eliminate set.
Like mentioned before, tillering is huge. However, one of the biggest concerns is asking too little wood to do to much work. Too short or too narrow and you will have a problem. You will often hear about a minimum length safe for a bow design, but you cannot forget a minimum width. It is a fine balancing act.
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"Set Happens"
lol
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either glue in a reflex when you put the backing on or heat treat in a reflex
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Justin, I read that deffinition in TBB IV too, but I don't buy it. Set is set, it doesn't make sense to me to call it two different names. To me string follow is a temporary thing after a bow is unstrung. Stuburn!!!
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string follow is a symptom of set, they are not different: it's like a cough is a symptom of a cold.
You don't want set: don't make bows.
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Justin, I read that definition in TBB IV too, but I don't buy it. Set is set, it doesn't make sense to me to call it two different names. To me string follow is a temporary thing after a bow is unstrung. Stuburn!!!
I always thought they were backward when Baker defined it that way. It follows the string regardless, it doesn't always set behind a straight limb position. O:) But you and I are just a couple of nobodies so who are we to argue. ;) ;D I do have to agree with you that set is set regardless of where the limb tips end up. However, you can still maintain a little reflex and have a little more string tension at brace which will deliver more energy to the bow.
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"string follow is a symptom of set, they are not different" Sorry that ain't workin either, if that's the case you don't see string follow till you use up all your reflex during tiller or the life of the bow. After every bow is unbraced you will see it take string follow and relax in time, no matter how minute the measurement is. I guess what Tim baker was trying to say is everything is called set until the tips pass the handle, the he calls is string follow. I'm sorry it's set, and it's different than string follow. >:D A couple of days after Veterens Day, and I'm still proud I fought for the right to argue, and stand up for my beliefs. ;D
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I think that's pretty much what jawge was saying, Dano. Set is permanent, string follow is temporary. At least that's what I got from it
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funny that you give Jawge credit for that one...
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Funny no one has mentioned the secret of no set-fg:)
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I accept it as a sign that you are getting the most out of the wood. I don't like to see very long bows being drawn short with barely any curveature. I think that poor bow, it could be working so much harder and having a more fulfilling existence as a bow :'(
Del ;D
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Zero string follow it is not very hard to rich. Like you said - induce 2 inch of reflex before tillering , belly tempred after first phase of tillering , its not big deal ;)
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"string follow is a symptom of set, they are not different" Sorry that ain't workin either, if that's the case you don't see string follow till you use up all your reflex during tiller or the life of the bow. After every bow is unbraced you will see it take string follow and relax in time, no matter how minute the measurement is. I guess what Tim baker was trying to say is everything is called set until the tips pass the handle, the he calls is string follow. I'm sorry it's set, and it's different than string follow. >:D A couple of days after Veterens Day, and I'm still proud I fought for the right to argue, and stand up for my beliefs. ;D
don't get political, this is an archery forum.
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Once in a great while I use a piece of osage that refuses to take any set, can't explain it, it just happens. For the rest of my osage I reflex the stave 3" before I start tillering and have little set in a finished bow.
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"don't get political, this is an archery forum"
Nothing political about what I said, just stating a fact.
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as for dealing with string follow: use a heat gun and gum varnish, as described my Marc St Louis in TBB4. Awesome results.
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It seems we all have a right to disagree here, so lets do that and quit the pissing contest.
I am going to post this here for all to read because I am tired of editing posts day in and day out. Primitive Archer has established this forum for FAMILY friendly use. The rules prohibit cursing and foul language. I have received PMs from the owners asking me to eliminate language that is inappropriate for a family forum. Some people keep on typing and I keep on removing and sending PMs. It needs to stop. You all know what language I am talking about. I don't care if it is not offensive to you, it is offensive to some, including the owners. If you feel you need to use this language, go start your own forum where you can use it all you want.
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Thanks for the clearly-worded message. I did not use any foul language in the post you deleted, did i? I believe i kept curse words out of it, and simply stated an opinion. Isn't that the freedom of speech the vets say they fought for?
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"Set Happens"
lol
That's REALLY funny! ...we all should wear t-shirts saying that; it would be a sort of Elite crowd to even understand! - Love it...
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LOL I'll buy a shirt:)
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me too!
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Radius, the post of yours along with the others I deleted were deleted because they were political points and had no other purpose. I do not delete foul language posts when possible, I edit out the language.
As for your question on freedom of speech. Yes the vets from many countries fought in many wars to protect that freedom, and to them and their families I am truly gratefull. This is entirely different. No vet fought to allow anyone to go to another's house and spraypaint offensive language on the wall in the name of free speech. For all intents and purposes this forum is PA's house. The law, and common sense tell us that they should be allowed to decide what is spray painted on the wall?
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well put, Justin, and i concede. Thanks for putting it that way.
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Just curious, how old are you Scott?
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Eric, not old enough and do us a favor, don't go there. Scott, do us a favor, too let it ride. O:)
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Dano,
I've made bows that started with 5 in of reflex and kept 3 in of it. 2 in of set not string follow because the tips aren't following the string. jawge
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Eric, not old enough and do us a favor, don't go there. Scott, do us a favor, too let it ride. O:)
i'm good, i'm good...had my little spasm of contrariness but it is gone...happens to everyone...i mean what i said but i don't need to say it here, that's fine. My apologies.
Eric, I'm 37. You looking for a date? I think i might be too young for ya!
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I can't believe there would even be a discussion about the two terms. You would have to be obsessed with terms to not see that they mean the same thing. It's like saying "fast" or "quick".
The decision to call the set past straight "string follow" is really meaningless. Whether the tips are in front of the grip or not they are still headed in the direction of the string. The string is 'leading" them, so they are following it.
It has only become an issue since people started being able to build consistent reflex into a bow.
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Well I have to add that I have had the experience twice of tillering r/d bbi bows that ended with exactly the same reflex they started with and did not change through tillering and hundreds of shots so it is possible ;) Both of them do show slight temporary set right when unstrung but return to 1 1/2 reflex after a short rest. Both were tillered from Knight D's blanks. I dont really know why but these ones just did not take any set. The only thing I could figure is that maybe they are gaining reflex while removing wood and taking set at the same time thus no measurable difference. I have seen lam bows gain reflex while tillering and then loose it again but these just stayed the same throughout ??? On a selfbow if you plan to end up flat you just have to start out with some reflex. People use the term string follow when referring to how far the tips are from the handle when past center towards the string so in theory you could have a bow with 8" string follow and 0 set if it started out 8" from the handle ;D I think the terms should simply be temporary set and permanent set when talking about set. We need a term for the opposite of reflex and that for now is string follow not the same as set. Set can cause string follow but string follow is not set in my opinion :)
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Set can cause string follow but string follow is not set in my opinion :)
that's what i was trying to say
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Gentleman, you don't have to agree with me. LOL. It's ok. It's not like this is baseball. Opposite viewpoints are certainly welcome. But I hold my ground on this one. I prefer to distinguish between the 2 concepts-set and string follow. No T shirts. My saying. All rights reserved. Set does happen. :) Jawge
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I want to see the copyright, we'll throw you a free shirt:)
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Jawge!
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I'm with Jawges on this one also. There may be no difference but the performance will suffer more with string follow than set,and yes set dose happen,just controlling how much is the trick. I try and do that by tillering in several stages,Brace, then out to 12 inches or so then out to 18/20 then on to full draw with a lot of rest and exercise in between each session. :) and especially with white wood keeping it dry all the way through the process. :)
Pappy
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I don't find the semantics question particularly compelling, or whatever aside the ed staff had to birddog, but I do think the topic has a LOT of merit.
I'm glad Eric posted what he did. For years the dogma has been "set happens" as if it is something inevitable, something inherent and not introduced. Fact is that set is CAUSED. If you "overbuild" a bow enough, it will not change is profile during construction or use. While I haven't had a selfbow project turn out this way, I'm convinced it can be done. Badger pointed out a very useful technique years ago. Check your draw weight at various intervals of tiller, say 20", 22", 24", 26". Generally you'll find you get the same draw weight at say 20" until you get to about 26". At this point you've exceeded the elastic limits of the material and you'll not ever get the same reading at 20". This obviously assuming no wood removal, no change in moisture content, anything. What you'll find is that you once you've broken past the elastic threshold, you'll never again achieve the efficiency potential once in the project. Bow building for me has become a dance with the stave, to find and not cross this threshold, or at least not by too much. It's a whole new way of looking at bow building, although not new. Jim Fetrow preached the same thing 10 years ago, and was soundly ridiculed for it. A bow can be made with no set, but not by the methods usually advocated, and taken for granted. And, like Eric said, when it comes to bow wood whether species matters remains a question, but specimen definately matters.
I've actually had r/d bows increase reflex as belly wood is removed, where I had a lot of "spring back" out of the glue up. The stronger belly was actually holding the relfex down. I assume a similar phenomenon is taking place on "zero" set stave bows. As belly wood is removed tension wood on the back is offseting the crushed belly wood.
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DCM, it is good to hear from you. Having your input is nice. I trust all is well with you and yours. I have never made or seen a zero set or string follow bow. I've seen "even" bows and I've seen reflexed bows. They've come from reflexed staves. I challenge anyone to begin with an even stave and result in EXACTLY the same -even. Conditions- your bow must be of the same usual dimensions, you must draw it the same distance, and it must be the same weight you normally build. Overbuilt bows are more likely to result in zero set. You must also use the same species you normally use. When I measure set I place the back of the bow up against the wall and measure tip deflection. One other condition- 0.001 in. of set is still set. DCM, you dance with your staves. I cradle mine rocking them gently in my hands until they are ready to become bows. I Floor tiller and long string tillering to just 10# over final draw weight and gently string at a low brace for the first time. I don't pull to target weight until 1 inch under my draw length. Credit Mr Fetrow for that tip. Very interesting. I've already tried and couldn't do it but In do try each time. Perhaps there is someone out there who can build a zero set bow with the conditions I have delineated. I do find this discussion interesting. DCM, have you ever built a zero set bow? It's a laudable goal. I gotta look into those T shirts. :) Jawge
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Oh and I am talking selfbows. No backing of any kind except air. :) Jawge
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Okay, this is what I understand from this conversation. Set is the distance the tips have permanently moved towards the belly of a bow regardless of whether the tips have exceeded the plane of the bow back or not. String follow as defined by some, describes set that has broken the plane of the bow back. Let's call this definition "A". String follow as defined by others is a temporary distortion of the bow after unbracing/shooting that looks like set until the distortion has relaxed out again, regardless of whether the plane of the bow back has been broken or not. Let's call this definition "B". Is that correct? So now the question as far as I am concerned is not who is correct about the definition of string follow, but how to differentiate between the two definitions since they really are about apples and oranges. BTW I don't have an opinion whether one or the other definition is correct or more appropriate, I just want to be sure someone understands when I mean one or the other.
Now as to whether set is bad, regardless of if it past the back of the bow or not, is a matter of whether you still get the performance you want out of the bow or not. If you have two inches of set and still draw your target weight at your draw length, and at an acceptable arrow speed, I wouldn't care (others might). Now if a bow has set (string follow as per definition A) 2" shy of your draw length even if it still makes weight, I would care. Which I guess leads into the difference between actual draw length and perceived draw length. But that is another argument even if it is related to reflex/deflex/set.
Swamp
ETA I have no idea where the emoticon with the police hat comes from, it's supposed to read "... per definition A...", and that is what the edit window shows. ???
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Swamp Bow, that's the way I look at it. I've come to realize over the years ( I have a wife and 2 daughters who I love dearly) that not everyone agrees with me. LOL. I'm happy with less than 2 in of set. :) Jawge
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Jawge. Well, thanks. Hope the same for ya'll.
One part of the dogma that works against a zero set goal is the concept that we must "work in" tiller adjustments by drawing the bow some arbitrary number of times. I don't follow this dogma. The rest I answered in my first post. Fetrow's pov was predominantly that the wood specimen made all the difference. While I accept this explanation, and think when you dig deeper it's the same as saying one must design (and craft in as much as they are intertwined) appropriately for the working properties of the specimen at hand. This is what makes classical bowyering interesting (as opposed to conventional materials) for me, investigating the nature of each wood specimen... both in terms of individually while making a bow but also in terms of finding, cutting and processing bow wood. I'm nearly as much enamored with the latter as the former any more, having "been there, done that" on the bowyerin' thing.
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Come on, guys, give 'em up.
LOL, funny how this thread mutated,......interesting too is how much we are into owr terminology :D
On that subject i see it like George and some others, not that it's the right one, just the way I use it.
I see set as the collaps of the cells changing the profile of a bow during tillering, I see follow asthe bow being bend into a deflexed look once unbraced.
You can have a bow with set but no follow, and you can have a bow with no set and follow ;D ;D
.......now for the no set I know that Steve Gardner as a method, i haven't dabbed into it since I can't get my brain to wrap around those technicalitys.
the only time I have achieved no set was on a couplle of deflexed YEW bow, otherwise some degree of set has being there.
On the matter of minimaising set, this is what I've being quite lucky lately and got some decent results.
I do a lot of shaping before I do any bending, I can tell how heavy the bow is by now just by feeling the phisical weight.
As soon as i have the limbs balanced and before i do any more than minimal floor tillering, i temper the bow, than I long string it to brace hight, at that point a get a string on it and as soon the bend looks nice I give it a good sweat.
I go thru the normal tree tillering to 20" , at this point I temper the bow again, from now on no more tillering tree,( even on my final check for draw weihgt on the tree I only draw to 1" less than final draw, ) I shoot 25 to 50 arrows every 1/2" increment of draw weight, adjusting tiller as necessary, after every adjustment i go back 1" and restart the shooting in process, 1" before full draw I do a final tempering
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Ho yeah, nice post Mimms :)
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I've been reading this and hesitant to open the can of worms on what I think is possible but Manny just voiced what I am doing some research on right now.
A few years back Dean Torques did an "ambush bow" challenge. One of the main criteria was to build a bow that could be braced for long periods (8hrs.) without losing a measureable amount of draw weight. For me, this meant a bow that was deflexed/reflexed for one main reason. Less strain on the mid and inner limbs and a bow that was closer to brace, but still able to have good early draw weight due to stronger inner and mid limbs.
This challenge, and the bow that I ended up with, transformed how I thought about deflexed staves. I used a natural 3" deflexed stave and did a slight roll on the tips. That bow became my favorite shooter and has great early weight without being (Heavily strained} at brace. The early weight is gained by stronger mid and inner limbs instead of a large amount of bending to produce early draw weight.(less crushing of cells / stretching of tension fibers) Also since the biggest loss of performance is generally due to excess mass on the outer third of the limbs. This design relies on more inner limb mass and less outer limb weight.
Of all the different bows that I have made this has been the best that I have done for (almost) zero set. I am currently working on a few more of these to see if they prove out the same and I'm documenting the original start to finish findings for future knowledge. I do believe this has also led to more longevity in performance on that particular bow.
Here is the bow that I made years ago and some of you have seen one of the ones in the works right now. Keep in mind the original stave had three inches of natural deflex To this day, it has not changed. Still one of my fastest best shooting bows.
I can here some of you thinking that it must not have good early weight but that is simply not the case. It's a nice tone when plucked. I do think I still have the orginal pics of the deflexed stave and I'll try to find those to prove out what I'm saying.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_1002.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_1003.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_0018.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_1010.jpg)
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Keenan that is a fine looking bow 8)
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Thanks Jesse. I'm trying to find the stave pics but I have files upon files of stave pics to sift through, Due to lazy categorizing practices of the past. ::)
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Keenan, that is a stunning bow. Looks good. :) Jawge
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Keenan, I remember that one. I think what you are describing is what Tim Baker mentioned in the description of the duoflex style bow in TTBB 3.
Just to a slightly lesser degree. The thicker barely bending inner limb can have a high weight with little limb travel and then the lighter outer limbs give the rest of the draw weight.
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Exactly Pat ;)
Thank you George, From a man of your experience, that means allot to me.
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Keenan, our forebears realized what we are just learning. Namely that the bend in the handle design is capable of storing a lot of energy. What you did is no small mean feat; a bend in the handle with fades takes some doing and gentle work. Bet it's smooth as my friend Joe's bald head and with no shock unlike my friend Joe. :) Jawge
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Keenan, you simply look scary on that last picture, and I'm sure it's all true what you are saying about this bow!
I have a piece of ERC (no sapwood) that is quite short for my 29" pull so I'm thinking of a similar design, heat treating my stave to deflex/recurve, sinewed back.
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Keenan, I remember those days of the first ABC challenge, and when you came up with that bow I started to look at deflexed staves differently, a great inspiration that led to the crafting of a couple of bows that are like you describe, ..exellent cast with great early string tension
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this is what I came up with
65# @ 26" longbow
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/YEW%20longbow/003.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/YEW%20longbow/011.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/YEW%20longbow/019.jpg)
note that there's no set compared to the split stave
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/YEW%20longbow/004-2.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/YEW%20longbow/003-1-1.jpg)
That one stave become this 82# @ 26" shortbow
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/YEW%20shortbow/012-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/YEW%20shortbow/002-1.jpg)
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/YEW%20shortbow/003-1.jpg)
as you can seee, no real string follow, and like Keenan says, they shoot hard ;D
I ment,....no real set ;D all that terminology confuses the poor small brain ::) ::)
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I think the cast of these deflexed bows comes from the belly wood being not crushed. The cast from a "fresh" bow will open your eyes.
Nice Keegan, I remember that bow. And it's good to see ABC planted some thoughts that continue to bear fruit. Same for me.
It brings to mind a hop hornbeam bow years ago that I fought with using heat and never did get it to a straight profile, being a deflexed stave. I was disappointed with it, not knowing any better but the fellar that got it raved about the cast. It followed about an inch from the outset and was generous in wood for a 26" draw and ultimately only took about 1/2" set from building.
I wonder about the whole tension wood/compression wood thing, since typically a compression stave will take deflex and yet they seem to be capable of a humdinger bows.
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I guess I need a different name for my theory :o Any how, I concede to the masses. Great conversaton tho. ;D Love them Yew bows guys.
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I guess I need a different name for my theory :o Any how, I concede to the masses. Great conversaton tho. ;D Love them Yew bows guys.
We definitely need a new name for it because I don't care for the current terms all that much either. ;D
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Manny that bow is sweet and definitely worth a second look.
Guys that stave in Manny's pic is just the kind of stave that we are talking about. Years ago I would have looked at that stave as firewood or cut and splice to get reflex. However with the right mindset and some carefull heat treatment, you can unlock some serious potential.
Thanks again for sharing that Manny.
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Like David says there is no real belly crushing in a deflexed bow. A bowyer can introduce deflex with heat. That's different from set and string follow-at least the way I see it. LOL. Set happens and so does deflex. :) Jawge
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Years ago I would have looked at that stave as firewood........
Same here,...nowadays I'm actually looking for certain deflexed and deflexed/reflexed staves ;)
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These kinds of discussions leave me a bit concerned for the beginner. I've been making bows a long time (late 80's). The best I've done is 1 inch of set starting from a straight stave. I hear all to often beginners saying that their build was a failure because they got 2.5 in of set. Beginners take heart! :) Jawge
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This discussion has been an eye opener for me. Here I have been struggling for a long time to tiller my bows so that they wouldn't take set. Every time they do I was considering it a failure of sorts, (even if the bow looked and shot well). Now I finally realize that some set is normal, and that to much means I did something wrong.
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The question isn't, will it take set. The question is, how much.
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These kinds of discussions leave me a bit concerned for the beginner. I've been making bows a long time (late 80's). The best I've done is 1 inch of set starting from a straight stave. I hear all to often beginners saying that their build was a failure because they got 2.5 in of set. Beginners take heart! :) Jag
Yep, you are right Jawge, this beginner is now confused and left hanging for rescue once again. If string follow resembles the bow strung, what do you call this temporary condition that slowly corrects itself within hours of unstringing? Or are we talking about more permanent matters? I think maybe I'm on track with your explanation of "set" but I did find myself searching for an extra inch that I couldn't account for. See I even struggle with simple math. O dear, the confusion of it all.....:)
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George has a good point and this certainly could be confusing for some new people to the sport. I'll try to clarify a few thoughts and hope not to muddy the water all the more.
If a bow starts out straight or heavily reflexed and ends up looking like it's braced when it's not, then it's taken a heavy set has certainly had some cell damage and will probably shoot fairly poor. It will generally have low early string weight and a poor F/D chart.
The difference in a natural deflexed/reflexed bow is that the bow limbs have not been damaged and is still in it's natural state will full potencail of energy storage. Though the limbs tips could be even slightly behind the handle the early draw weight is achieved by stronger inner and mid limbs. The wood remains unstressed in comparison to a heavily reflexed limb and energy builds fairly smooth with the limbs loading in a (Normal) flex zone without causing the damage to the wood cells.
Example. Imagine that a limb tip is 2" in front of the handle and the bow is braced and drawn to 28" the limb tip has traveled roughly 30" total from it's original state. However take a slight deflexed stave with a slight reflexed tips that are say 2" behind the handle and brace and draw to 28" the tips have only traveled 26" from original state.
Now when we are talking about a bow taking heavy set it is geneally due to limbs being over bent to the point of causing cell damage. This could be from poor tillering or to short of bow for the draw length or a number of reasons. The point is, that less limb travel from the original point of origin, is less likely to take set if everything else is done right.
Now the trick is balancing mass and strength, to achieve early draw weight, without the excess mass that causes performance to suffer. This is done by keeping the outer thirds light as possible and just enough on the mid and inner limbs to force early draw weight. As George stated to get a bend through the fades and handle takes some carefull blending of the limbs into the handle, but when achieved can boost performance as well.
Once again I will state If the bow is deflexed because of poor tillering and overstressed limbs in will have low early draw weight and be a poor performer in general. That is why most will shoot for a straight or slightly reflexed bow when unbraced.
This thread started as a question of how to help achieve zero set or string follow. No matter which term were are referring too, I think this is something that can help achieve that goal.
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Keenan, that was a good analysis. Like my mentor said, "If you have a bow and like the way it shoots don't worry about the set." gmc, it is normal to regain some of the set after unbracing. Jawge
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Keenan, Good description but you may have clouded the issue a bit by saying the limbs are moving the distance of the draw. The limbs don't actually move nearly that much. Perhaps together they may add up to that amount of travel, but not individually.
The main reason I consider both descriptions the same is because there are too many situations where they would be in constant flux.
You could have a slightly reflexed bow that shows one inch of "string follow" after unbracing and creeps back to a bit of reflex and becomes half an inch of "set".
In the end it's how the bow shoots, not what profile it has after unstringing and what you want to call that.
Only the maker of the bow knows for sure what is going on.
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Jawge, hang with one more time here, I'm just trying to understand this. So we are calling this temporary condition after unbracing "set" even thou its regained after a period of time? If so does this imply that reflex added to the limbs and maintained to some degree or even held to the original plane of the bow limb will deliver a zero string-follow bow?
This is good stuff and I'm just trying to learn at the expense of the poster but we may have discovered the secret if this is correct.
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gmc, I call it string follow only if the bow, when it is unbraced, looks like it's braced. It literally looks like the bow is braced. Yes, I would call it set or string follow when just unbraced. Yes, if you start with 2 inches of reflex and end up even you have a zero string follow bow (but 2 inches of set). Jawge
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Pat you are right, the limbs don't move to that degree. I used the analogy and was trying to keep it simple on the realm of not calculating string angle and other obvious variables.. Tim Baker and I were having a discusion once over a theory and he made a comment that I believe to be good advice. He said to see the results of someting, sometimes it helps to look at an exaggerated view.
So for Gmc. If we are looking into the effect of momentary displacement of the original limb position after unstringing the bow. Here are some thoughts. We rarely see much dramatic change of limb position after unbracing a bow. Average would probably fall in the one inch range if measured right after unbraced and then two hours later. Now considering that the average bow gains 3-4 lbs per inch of draw when strung, and even less from resting position to 1" off resting profile. Then the overall effect is probably very minimal. This can sometimes be a greater amount of change when sinew is involved.
Now with these things in mind, one thing that I think the situation may indicate is, that if the amount of delayed return is greater then an inch, it could be an indication that the wood is very close to permenate damage to the cells. And this could become permanent "set" or fatigue of the tension wood. The factor becomes bigger when a bow is braced all day and shows a measureable amount of draw weight loss from when it was first strung.
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gmc, I call it string follow only if the bow, when it is unbraced, looks like it's braced. It literally looks like the bow is braced. Yes, I would call it set or string follow when just unbraced. Yes, if you start with 2 inches of reflex and end up even you have a zero string follow bow (but 2 inches of set). Jawge
Thanks Jawge.
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Thanks Keenen. That is a very good description of what I'm after here, "momentary displacement of the limb". So what would you call this condition, set or string follow? I agree, at some point temporary turns into permenant and the amount of time to reach permanent would be based on the amount of displacement to start with, agreed. But this could still be a secret if the temporary displacement is called "string follow". If not, the posters question has been answered.
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"momentary displacement of the limb" does not have a unique name by convention that I'm away of. I personally don't make a distinction, if the bow is 2" different from it's profile in stave form when first unbraced, it has 2" of set. If it started with 1" of reflex, it has 1" of string follow and 2" of set. A bow with a bunch of "spring back," if you will, is more than likely a little moisture heavy, or has an elastic backing like sinew. I don't think a bow which springs back 1" from 2" of set will perform much differnent than one that springs back 2" from 2", all else being equal... "much" being the operative word here as I could make a theoretical argument to the contrary. If the belly wood can be uncompressed so easily, it ain't storing any energy anyway. The trick is in most cases all things aren't equal, again MC being the difference which will effect performance.
I posted to say there's nothing magical about a deflexed stave, whether natural or induced, other than the geometry. You could just as well add lenght or width, or overbuild, to the same effect. That is, and here's the "secret" if there is one for newbies, crushed wood robs cast and that's all there is to it. How to avoid crushed wood is the question/problem. Whether we choose design (ie. deflex or longer or wider), or crafting (moisture content and tillering technique), or materials (tension wood, dense wood) isn't the question. Again, an elk don't know how many legs a horse have. Not to say deflex doesn't have it's place, particularly in shorter bow designs.
For newbies, 1" to 2" inches of set is typical for all of my projects, and antectdotally my bows seem to have above average but not exceptional cast. I think it's a mistake to err on the side of being too careful (for a newbie), but at least as big a mistake to be too cavalier wrt how much set a particular project takes. Only because many newbies suffer from project paralysis, where they are askeared to do anything "wrong" and the consequence is they don't do anything at all. Much better to bust a few, mess up a few and keep on plugging, being just careful enough to get you a few shooters, regardless of how "good" they turn out. We learn nothing from our successes, relative to our failures.
But for seasoned hands, I see no reason other than personal preference to not strive for as little set as possible, leveraging any and all devices at hand to that end. Again, if cast is important to you (not above other requiremens obviously) a "fresh" bow is a real eye opener. Since all bows (of the same "kind") pretty much shoot the same, this is the one area I've found where a bowyer can achieve some marginal improvement in performance. Obviously this assumes optimum material and design, the things we more typcially and easily can and do control. This is the essence of the crafting, for me.
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Ok here is my vote for the new term. Momentary displacement of the limb should be called "delayed return" ;D I'll use it in a sentence. The delayed return on my new maple selfbow is a half inch over an hour. ;D
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Once you get past the prickly part :P , this is a dang good thread. A novice like me learned a thing or two, particularly about deflexed bows. I made a backed board version inadvertently last year. Alot of deflex but not enough reflex(I thought).
But right from the start it had alot of early draw. Yet even after completion I wasn' t happy with myself, vowing to do better
with the reflex. I think I'll quit kicking myself and go shoot my perfectly fine bow now ;D
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my head is spinning ! .... if it shoots hard and true dang the terms ! , i have one bow that is as jawge describes looks dang near strung when unstrung , ..but i can hit a beer can in the ditch at 20 steps with it and thats funner than drinking it !!!!! ;D
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ken, you are right. But do me a favor. Drink the beer first. :) Jawge
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ken, you are right. But do me a favor. Drink the beer first. :) Jawge
I have always wanted to shoot at a full can of beer but i just cant physicaly bring my self to do it!
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I don't find the semantics question particularly compelling, or whatever aside the ed staff had to birddog, but I do think the topic has a LOT of merit.
I'm glad Eric posted what he did. For years the dogma has been "set happens" as if it is something inevitable, something inherent and not introduced. Fact is that set is CAUSED. If you "overbuild" a bow enough, it will not change is profile during construction or use. While I haven't had a selfbow project turn out this way, I'm convinced it can be done. Badger pointed out a very useful technique years ago. Check your draw weight at various intervals of tiller, say 20", 22", 24", 26". Generally you'll find you get the same draw weight at say 20" until you get to about 26". At this point you've exceeded the elastic limits of the material and you'll not ever get the same reading at 20". This obviously assuming no wood removal, no change in moisture content, anything. What you'll find is that you once you've broken past the elastic threshold, you'll never again achieve the efficiency potential once in the project. Bow building for me has become a dance with the stave, to find and not cross this threshold, or at least not by too much. It's a whole new way of looking at bow building, although not new. Jim Fetrow preached the same thing 10 years ago, and was soundly ridiculed for it. A bow can be made with no set, but not by the methods usually advocated, and taken for granted. And, like Eric said, when it comes to bow wood whether species matters remains a question, but specimen definately matters.
I've actually had r/d bows increase reflex as belly wood is removed, where I had a lot of "spring back" out of the glue up. The stronger belly was actually holding the relfex down. I assume a similar phenomenon is taking place on "zero" set stave bows. As belly wood is removed tension wood on the back is offseting the crushed belly wood.
hi
i would like to hear more about this "elasticity threshold". Anybody else wanna chime in?
radius
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hi
i would like to hear more about this "elasticity threshold". Anybody else wanna chime in?
radius
Oh well since you ask.
I don't think terms like elasticity threshold and such like can necessarilly be validly applied to materials like wood which are not homogenous.
What I mean is if you take a bit of wood, bend it until it takes a set (or follow...ok dear back to the semantics) it won't behave the same as it did before, but it doesn't mean it's broken, it's changed it's structure, possibly just in the outer layers of the wood. We know from experience that bending it back the other way won't restore it, but some compression (or maybe heat treating if that's you thing) is quite possibly a good thing.
My view is that the maths and physics in a bit of an interesting diversion for long winter nights, but the actual feel and performance of the wood is what matters.
Back to the semantics. I think set and string follow are the same and are a measure of how far the stave has deformed from it's original shape due only to bending forces during manufacture and use.
I think if a bow hasn't taken a bit of set/follow then it isn't working hard enough (I'm talking self bows ).
I do recognise however that the 'recovery bend' thing exists in some woods, so it may come back after an hour...dunno what I'd call that tho' ?
Del
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Haven't followed this in a while,very good thread,Well put David,even I understand SOME
of that. :) That has always been a problem with me and new folks,they always want to build the prefect bow the first time out of the gate and as David said you don't learn much from that,after
several Hundred I still haven't archived that,That's what keeps me at it.I always see something I could have done better on every bow. :)
Pappy
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Since we are talking about "temporary deformation" again, what are peoples thoughts on how that affects performance? Does it rob cast/draw weight as compared to a bow that does not have said condition, assuming that both bows are "equal" in every other way? I don't have enough experience to say, but my instinct says it should affect performance even if it is neglegible. Del mentioned that some woods are more prone to this (Del please correct me if I misunderstood that), has this been the experience of others? If it has, which woods are more prone? Thanks.
Swamp
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well, if it's negligible, something only a camera could pick up, let's not worry about it and just move on.
who originally asked the Q?
i still say heat tempering is one of the premier methods we can use to counteract set.
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Since we are talking about "temporary deformation" again, what are peoples thoughts on how that affects performance? Does it rob cast/draw weight as compared to a bow that does not have said condition, assuming that both bows are "equal" in every other way? I don't have enough experience to say, but my instinct says it should affect performance even if it is neglegible. Del mentioned that some woods are more prone to this (Del please correct me if I misunderstood that), has this been the experience of others? If it has, which woods are more prone? Thanks.
Swamp
Temporary deformation will affect performance exactly the same as permanent set. ei 2" permanent set plus 2" temporary set will be equivalent to a 4" permanent set bow...
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No Radius, thank you very much. Just because you aren't interested, doesn't mean I'm not. If you don't want to know an answer to a legitimate question don't read it.
Regards,
Swamp
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No Radius, thank you very much. Just because you aren't interested, doesn't mean I'm not. If you don't want to know an answer to a legitimate question don't read it.
Regards,
Swamp
i believe you may have missed my meaning
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I hope so, would you care to explain?
Swamp
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Swamp here is what I wrote in my earlier post about the "temporary deformation" I think it may help you answere that question.
"If we are looking into the effect of momentary displacement of the original limb position after unstringing the bow. Here are some thoughts. We rarely see much dramatic change of limb position after unbracing a bow. Average would probably fall in the one inch range if measured right after unbraced and then two hours later. Now considering that the average bow gains 3-4 lbs per inch of draw when strung, and even less from resting position to 1" off resting profile. Then the overall effect is probably very minimal. This can sometimes be a greater amount of change when sinew is involved.
Now with these things in mind, one thing that I think the situation may indicate is, that if the amount of delayed return is greater then an inch, it could be an indication that the wood is very close to permenate damage to the cells. And this could become permanent "set" or fatigue of the tension wood. The factor becomes bigger when a bow is braced all day and shows a measureable amount of draw weight loss from when it was first strung."
Also considering that poundage is only one of several multipiers for cast and arrow speed, and the poundage of that first inch or two is generally fairly low it is probably fairly minimal as a factor at best.
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Thanks Keenan, must have missed this on the first read through. Kinda what I figured.
Swamp
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As a beginner, I've read more than one term to descibe this temporary condition referred to now as the infamous temporary deformation of the limb, however significant or relavanet. But I do tend to see it posted from time to time as a measure of how well the bow limb holds its shape after use.
There was some discussion over giving it a new term or downright admitting a term was never developed. Here's my inexperienced opition until somebody changes it: It takes on the shape of the unstrung bow, (if it takes a shape, what other shape could it take, right?) and it's not permanent.
As for me, I will call it "string follow". Yes, I said it, "string follow" and I will say it again, "string follow". And I said that without any guilt or reservation. Pat's right, mission impossible. Case closed.
Next topic. ;D
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string follow is often regarded as a bowmaker's bane, as well. But i dunno. I've got a little yew 52#'er which follows the string horribly far but still shoots arrows very fast.
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When you see guys like John Schulz and his sons and David Miller's deliberate string follow bows it hardly seems worth fretting over. Or am I going to be told it's not worth chrysalling over?
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deliberate string follow????
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Set and string follow rob cast. That's no great secret. As selfwood bowyers we come to accept the inevitability of set and string follow. We deal with it and try to minimize it. But sometimes we pretend it is not there. I have string follow bows too but they're not deliberate. LOL. I don't get it, frankly. May be it's my science background but I prefer to be precise in describing what is happening to the wood when I make a bow. You can draw the covers over your heads as much as you want. The fact is- when you begin with 2 in of reflex in a stave and achieve no string follow you still have 2 inches of set. If you don't believe me ask the belly wood fibers on your bow if they are crushed or not. If you are able to begin with a straight stave, make your bow and it still is absolutely straight and not overbuilt I tip my hat to you.......speaking of covers, my friends...goodnight and Happy Thanksgiving. :) Jawge
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Yeah there is a glass bowyer in MI I forget his name but he builds one model with string follow just because it makes a sweet shooting bow.
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I remember the name now. Its northern mist longbows. Steve turray is the bowyer. They offer r/d and also string follow bows on their website and from talking to him a few years ago the string follow bows dont give up much at all in speed but are really nice to shoot
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Nate Steen,of Sunset Hill bows offers a string follow FG bow as does Howard Hill bows.Apparently Nate,Prefers this style bow for his own use,when he can build any style he wants,so that says something.
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5" of string follow is only efficient and desirable if the bow is soaked in saltwater first... >:D ;D
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5" of string follow is only efficient and desirable if the bow is soaked in saltwater first... >:D ;D
Huuu, ..that's a mean dig :D :D :D :D :D :D
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FG bows don't get string follow. LOL. Aren't y'all listening? The bowyer may build in some deflex. There is a market for deflexed glass bows. :) Jawge
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I have a question for Keenan, I like the look of the deflex ed bow you posted, I would like to try makings one. My question is what are the dimensions of that bow width at fads etc. It looks like it has a straight taper from the fads to the tips. I am a friend of Gordon's, I would like to come over to your side of the mountains with Gordon next year and go to the shoot you guys have. Thanks Greg
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George, The guys that build the glass string follow bows offer natural material bows in that shape as well. A good discussion might center around the difference between a laminated bow with the string follow shape glued in or acquired during the tillering process.
I'm not sure how that shape is actually achieved by those bowyers.
John Schulz was known for his bamboo backed bows built on the principle of Howard Hill's statement: "A bow that follows the string will be the most accurate shooting".
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Pat, I never had the pleasure of building a fg or all wood lam bow but any deflex added is done with forms I'm sure. No belly collapse. No string follow. LOL. :) Jawge
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I thought,.... that was set :D :D ;D
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Pat, I never had the pleasure of building a fg or all wood lam bow but any deflex added is done with forms I'm sure. No belly collapse. No string follow. LOL. :) Jawge
I said this before but in my opinion set can cause string follow but is not string follow its just when the limb tips are past the handle then its called string follow it can be caused by set or from starting with a deflexed stave. You cant call it just deflex though because you can have deflex with no follow or set as in a r/d bow, I thought this was cut and dry but I guess not ???
Seems real simple to me ;D
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Greg,
That deflexed bow is still in the works, I worked on the tiller a little more yesterday but still have a fair amount of weight to drop. It is deeper in profile then I usually make just because it was a narrow stave to start with With yew most any design can work but I tend to like more of a flat bow design and it is a slight taper from the fades then a little more of a taper on the outer third.
Generally I will run about 1 3/4 at the fades and around 1 5/8 at mid limb then a sharper taper to the tips. But as I said this one is narrow and more of an ELB profile.
Hope you can make it over for the rendezvous. I'll try to get some dimensions for you soon on that D/r in progress.
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Jawge, ln a laminated wooden bow it would undoubtedly be a combo of both. If it's built in it likely acquires a touch too. The only person that would really know is the guy who made it. That kind of proves that it's how the bow shoots and how much you like it that really matters.
To put it another way if John Schulz sent me one of his classic "string follow" bows that appears to be braced a couple of inches when unstrung, I'm not going to ask him what it really is. :)
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George, The guys that build the glass string follow bows offer natural material bows in that shape as well. A good discussion might center around the difference between a laminated bow with the string follow shape glued in or acquired during the tillering process.
I'm not sure how that shape is actually achieved by those bowyers.
John Schulz was known for his bamboo backed bows built on the principle of Howard Hill's statement: "A bow that follows the string will be the most accurate shooting".
I've made fiberglass backed osage bows that have followed the string by up to 2". They started straight.
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i don't think some string follow is such a bad thing. The bows seem to shoot pretty fast anyway.
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Could be, Pat. I don't know. It's hard to know what a selfbowyer is thinking or making because we are so all over the place with definitions. To me, that is a problem but one that does not affect me. Apparently, the bow making community is ok with this because in the past there has been no distinction between set and string follow. That's ok most are not scholars but craftsmen. I don't particularly care one way or the other because I make my own and they are usually string follow selfbows. But I am working on a sapling bow that may have a considerable amount of reflex to start and some of it will be natural so may result in some set. So y'all can define whatever you want I'm just going to pull the covers over my head. Define what you do however you want to. The important thing is keep making and teaching others how to make them. This is such a joy filled day. Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. :) I'm going to spend this day with family and friends. Jawge
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I've always defined it like George-set is the total amount of permanant profile difference between the original bow blank and the finished bow that occurs from compression of the belly during tillering. String follow is the amount of set that causes the tips to be deflexed past the handle. Doesn't really matter what you call what, I don't reckon.