Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pat B on March 07, 2009, 12:50:00 am
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So, you are a first time wood bow builder or are a relatively new to wood bow building...here are a few things to think about before you start!
1) each type of wood has a particular design that works best for it as a selfbow.
2) each stave will also have a particular design that works best for it as a selfbow.
3) each piece of wood will have a particular design that will work best for it as a selfbow.
4) each bow builder will have a particular selfbow design that works best for them.
5) each bow design has a particular length that works for it as a selfbow.
6)...and each draw length has a bow design that works best for that length.
Any or all of these may have more than one design or style or type but all should be considered before you make your decision about what you are going to build in the selfbow category.
If you are interested in building a board bow your considerations will be similar but there are also differences. Like with glass lam bows, wood lam bows are engineered before assembly for the optimum end product. Your back, core(s) and belly each has it's own considerations as to the stress properties they each posses for their particular job in the bow...
1)what is the best backing wood to consider for your particular belly wood, but also the design you intend to use?
2)what is the best belly wood for the backing you have chosen, but also the design you intend to use?
3) what is the best grain configuration for the belly wood used but also the design, draw weight and draw length used?
4) what would be your best core wood, considering the backing and belly woods, but also design.
5) what is the best grain configuration for the backing you intend to use? If you plan to use bamboo, the grain isn't a particular concern.
6) if you do choose boo for a backing, will your belly wood, core wood, design and length support the boo backing?
I have noticed that lots more folks are getting interested in building wood bows; whether they are selfbows, backed wood bows or all wood lam bows. I have also noticed that lot's of these folks have already decided what they want to build before acquiring their materials. To me, this is backwards when working with wood bows.
With a glass bow recipe you can decide what you want and then obtain the materials to make that bow. Generally, the wood you use will be primarily for cosmetic reasons but also as a gluing surface for your construction and many wood species and grain configurations will work.
With wood bow construction I believe you acquire your stave(or board) first and fit the design to the particular piece of wood, species of wood, grain configuration, draw weight, draw length, intended use and any particulars you may have as a shooter.
A good source of information about these considerations can be found in the TBB series of books. The "Design and Performance" section of both TBBI and the update in TBBIV will give you lots to consider...and sites like George's, Mickey's, and others will give you proven techniques that have many hours of experimentation, with successes and failures, that will get you closer to your new, self built wood bow. It is up to you to do your research but all of the info is out there for the taking. Added to all of this are sites like here on Primitive Archer, TradGang, Paleoplanet, etc where you can ask questions and get helpful criticism, suggestions and also see what others have done, to get you closer to a successful self built wood bow. Today, new wood bow builders and wannabes have the best wood bow builders in the world at their fingertips unlike when I and many others got started. Take advantage of these resources and follow a few suggestions from folks that know and you will have a better chance of success. Not all suggestions work for all situations and you may have to do a bit of experimentation yourself but please share the results with others. That is what it is all about!
I'm sure I missed a few things so any and all updates and suggestions are welcome.
Just because it is simple doesn't mean it is easy! Who would have thunk building wood bows could be so complicated!
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Good post Pat :) Think I would add before "Before Beginning your first bow: Do your homework first" :)
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That is a good post. The problem lies with impatience. Common Joe sees a selfbow/boardbow. he wants one....Gets on the net,does a search and bam, transported into places that seem to give them the thought that instant gratification will be theirs . They forgo the "search" feature that every site has.
The ones that do use the search and look around before asking, are the ones that usually turn out nice bows and stay around a while.
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Well I think folks runs a broad spectrum. Some will have some inherent abilities, insight based upon their life experience. Some will be bull-n-china shop for a short spell and move on to other interests. Others, perhaps the worst affliction, will sit and ponder and stew and fuss and study and ask and still not ever hit a lick, for fear of failure. Perfectly understandable, but the kiss of death if you want success in the craft. I'm firmly of the opinion one is ill served by their successes, and frequently regard too casually their failures. Not that one should be distraught over failures. Quite the opposite. Use them to learn where, why, how. More often than not, in hindsight the failure will become clear and obvious, and you'll leverage that insight into the next project. In this way a bowyer is built, one failure at a time. LOL
As much as anything I think the passion, the motivation or inspiration is what fuels the better bowyers ultimately. When I was coming up, and still even, I simply have a rabid appetite for all things bowyerin'. I get up in the morning thinkin bout it, and same in the evening time. And to be honest, I think it runs deep in our psyche, like instinct, like watching fire. There's something more there, that quickens the pulse to see an bent limb, or any artifact really.
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I held two bow bees at my house. At the first I had about 8 wannabe bowyers. After I showed them the ropes and handed them a piece of wood to work on every one of them backed off commenting" I might mess it up or I don't have the patience". I tried another of the same type of gathering one more time, same result.
The most common failing of first time bowmakers is reaching for a tool that cuts faster. I have seen a bunch of bows ruined on a belt sander and bandsaw by guys looking for a short cut. I did several in on a bandsaw myself in my early days.
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Good post, Pat. Eric, you mean you can ruin a stave on a bandsaw...??? Glad that never happened to me.....::) ;D ;D
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Good post, Pat. Eric, you mean you can ruin a stave on a bandsaw...??? Glad that never happened to me.....::) ;D ;D
i am going to find out today ;D
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Lately, I have seen quite a few guys that want to build a bow. That's a good thing! ;) 8) But, the first one they want to build is a high performance, R/D, bamboo backed bow with a jatoba(whatever) belly, Pierce points in the riser, that they can bare shaft their csx carbons at 200fps so they are assured that their single bevel broadhead with the tonto tip will completely pass through the Asian water buffalo that they persue in their rural hunting area. ::) ...but they don't have the time to build a simple selfbow or board bow to learn the process. Hopefully they will read this, and the comments from you guys and others that have done some of this bowyery stuff.
I spent many years screwing up good bow wood because I had to rely on myself for info. Then a few books and magazines started coming out with authors like Jay Massey, Paul Comstock, Jim Hamm and others that opened more doors for me...but it wasn't until I got a computer and found Primitive Archer and then TradGang, where I could see other folks bows and discuss their methods, that my bows became more than just bent sticks.
A bow is a simple machine...a stick with a shorter string attaching both of it's ends, forming a spring. That spring can be improved with a few refinements but it will propel an arrow in its simplest form. You have to crawl before you learn to walk!...and much of wood bow building is crawling. In today's fast paced world with everything crumbling around us, the easy pace of wood bow building is refreshing. A place to get away from the whirlwind of today's lifestyle and immerse yourself in the tranquility of a simple and ancient art form.
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Lately, I have seen quite a few guys that want to build a bow. That's a good thing! ;) 8) But, the first one they want to build is a high performance, R/D, bamboo backed bow with a jatoba(whatever) belly, Pierce points in the riser, that they can bare shaft their csx carbons at 200fps so they are assured that their single bevel broadhead with the tonto tip will completely pass through the Asian water buffalo that they persue in their rural hunting area. ::) ...but they don't have the time to build a simple selfbow or board bow to learn the process. Hopefully they will read this, and the comments from you guys and others that have done some of this bowyery stuff.
I spent many years screwing up good bow wood because I had to rely on myself for info. Then a few books and magazines started coming out with authors like Jay Massey, Paul Comstock, Jim Hamm and others that opened more doors for me...but it wasn't until I got a computer and found Primitive Archer and then TradGang, where I could see other folks bows and discuss their methods, that my bows became more than just bent sticks.
A bow is a simple machine...a stick with a shorter string attaching both of it's ends, forming a spring. That spring can be improved with a few refinements but it will propel an arrow in its simplest form. You have to crawl before you learn to walk!...and much of wood bow building is crawling. In today's fast paced world with everything crumbling around us, the easy pace of wood bow building is refreshing. A place to get away from the whirlwind of today's lifestyle and immerse yourself in the tranquility of a simple and ancient art form.
I say let them try. Not every type of archery is suited for every individual. If a person watns to go out and make their super bow like that on the first try, let them. After they fail and immediately blame the wooden bow that didn't meet their expectations, they can go try fiberglass and carbon or hire a custom bowyer. Just because people get a notion in their head doesn't mean they even know what they want ;).
Great posts Pat. Definately should be stickied to the top :)!
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Such a good thread, Pat. Such great insights from such great bowyers. DCM, I agree. I just lived and breathed making bows when I first started. I'm slowing down now. I seem to find making arrows relaxing now. I had to work so hard at learning bowyering. There were not that many books when I started and the books seemed to be lacking some things but they sufficed in their totality. I learned by breaking and working some pretty flawed staves. But I learned a lot from those early failures. It's better now with the internet and all the books. I also Had Bow Holzhauser from Silver Arrow Archery to pick me up and dust me off when I bounced a bow or 2 off my head. Best osage bowyer or any wood bowyer I've ever seen. Bar none and I mean none. It's much easier to make a bow these days. But this constant reliance on heat to remove every characteristic that makes wooden bows so attractive leaves me scratching my head. To each his/her own. Jawge
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You guys should see my first one.....Might as well strung a 2x4.:) But it shoots! I just don't have any fillings left! :)
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You guys should see my first one.....Might as well strung a 2x4.:) But it shoots! I just don't have any fillings left! :)
Timo my first hangs in my shop as a constant reminder to me :) I think it pulls about 8lbs is ugly as all hell but to me its a beauty ;)
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I am still a newbie. I haven't gave up. I have had 2 failures out of 4. Actually 3 because I am not done with 4 yet.
To the guys like Pat, and others. I don't take for granted the info I get on here, and trad gang. I know you guys probably get bored answering same questions. But just want to let you know, I for one sincerely appreciate your advise. I know you don't have to do it. I bet you have no idea how much you alone are keeping these skills alive.
I see young bowyers at two speeds. Flying thru wood with fastest tools available, or dead stop scared they will mess up. I have been at both speeds and hope one day to find happy median.
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Tim, at least my first one is really easy to string-it's stuck at half-draw. ;D One thing I see a lot is new bowyers setting themselves up for likely failure by insisting on building bows that are way too short. I'm not an accomplished bowyer by any means, but I've made quite a few that stayed in one piece and learned a few things from y'all along the way- and I wouldn't try to build a 52" red oak board bow and expect it to stay together.
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The reason I bring these things up is not to criticize the new guys out there but to try to get them to think about what they are doing before they jump in. I enjoy building wood bows and I enjoy helping others to achieve this. I never get bored giving out info, that I have acquired over years of experimentation, to anyone that is willing to at least listen to it even though they may take a different route. I don't expect anyone to take what I say as gospel but only to consider it as my experiences. There are guys out there that have the Midas touch and end up with a first bow that many of us would be satisfied with as our best. I'm not trying to change the way they do things and would have no problem asking their opinion as to their methods.
Jesse, I saw your bow last year at the Classic and was very impressed with not only the workmanship but the performance. I don't know where that bow sits in your line of bows but I consider you an exception to the rule.
And Bigcountry is a good example of the new bowyer that is willing to listen and put his best foot forward even though he is batting 50%. I consider you an exception also. You are willing to take the info presented and give it a shot. Like I said in another thread, I do think you are over thinking the process but that is your method and style. In my opinion the fact that you are willing to listen and try is a big plus in your favor.
By the way, George's first 14 wood bows could be considered failures(that's George's decision to make) and look at George's bows and the quantity of bow building experiences and info that he shares with all that are not only willing to read his site but practice what George has offered.
The cool thing about wood bows is that every bow is different, every method of achieving that goal is as different as the people using them. There are a few set "rules" that are tried and true that will help the new guy eventually make a successful wood bow. This is the point I am trying to get across; take the info that is available and add it to your abilities and your style and see where it takes you. If that isn't necessarily successful try a different route to achieve your goal.
What I love about having the internet and these archery sites is the diversity of ideas and info that is available to me. I have read, thought about and used ideas from guys that have never built a wood bow as well as guys that are highly successful and very talented in wood bow building. It is the willingness to listen to others and come to a personal conclusion that I am trying to get folks to think about. Not following the crowd to the "perfect" goal.
I am satisfied with my abilities to build wood bows but I am also willing to listen to someone else and change my methods when I see theirs may be a better choice than what I already know. I see lots of discouraged folks that have put the bar too high to begin instead of working up to that bar. If you learn anything from your "failure" then, in my opinion, it is not a failure but part of the learning experience.
.....and so ends my caffeine driven Sunday morning sermon.
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After further review my advice is to listen to their advice :)
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i have personally ruined my firts two attempts at making a wood bow,and then my 4th and 5 th,then my ninth
so its still happening to me,but with each succesfull bow that i make i learn something new,with every failure of a bow i gain more knowledge
than from the ones that actually work out.
i am still learning with every attempt at a bow,i am now learning how small tips can really be,how narrow and thin a handle can be and still stay ridgid.
etc.
i have taken advise from virtually everyone one here at one point or antoher in my bow building.
i have found somethings that worked wel for me, and i keep using that,other that didnt work so well for me,those i quite using.
i personally have nver read a book on making bows.all the knowledge i have came from this web site(and a few other sites that belong to members of this one)
and the good knowledgable folks on here that are willing to share their knowledge and experieinces on bow building.
i have only been doing this about 1. 5yrs now.last summer i tried my hand at a boo/hick r/d bow,the tillering didnt work out to well for me.it was beyond my abilities at
that point in time,i may give it a try again this summer,but if i do i wil once again ask for advise from everyone on here.only becuase i value the opinions of
the folks on here when it comes to bow building,well that and i have seen the caliber of r/d bows some of the folks on here turn out.
so why wouldnt someone want to seek the advise of such talented individuals.
i do agree with Pat also on the fact that there does seem to be alot of newbies coming on and seeking advise for bows that really shouldnt be the first attempt at
making a wood bow.like he said, when that bow fails they blame the fact that it is a wood bow,they forget that their skill level may not have been up to the project at hand.
ok enough of my non caffienated rant,need to get some joe.
peace,
tim
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Good thread Pat,I run into that a lot and especially at the Classic where we have so many,they all,well not all but most want to turn out a widow or something like that,and it just kills them when the first turn out but everything ant just prefect,All I can do is shake my head.If they only knew
how most of us started. Some stick with it and get good at it [over time] others, that is there last.Like has been said it ant for everyone. :) Tahanks Pat ,this should help some to open there eyes on what it is all about.I am glad I ant the only that wakes up thinking of it and usually the last thoughts in my head at night.I thought I was just crazy and may be, but at least I ant alone. ;) ;D
Pappy
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Yeh Pappy. We have to all stick together with our insanity. ;D
Looks like lots of folks have read this. I only hope it sunk in for some. Lots of good info out there these days. I wish we had it back when!
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Great thread Pat. This hobby(obsession for me) is not compatable with the fast pace of society today. The only shortcut in making a wooden bow are to be willing to make plenty of mistakes and learn from them. What if you made the ultimate wooden bow on your first go? Would you be driven to improve? I value the mistakes I've made, although I wish I had one or two back, because it has driven me to problem solve and improve at my bow making skills. I can relate to most replies and the one's that I can't , I will in time.Thanks Pat!
Tracy
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Good points all around from all the posters. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool newbie to bowyering however, I had set my sights with some modesty and after I think three or four tries I ended up getting numbers 4 and 6 right, and my wife and I are shooting those to learn archery while I fiddle around with different ideas. One mistake I DID make was to only make two successful wood board bows and then think I was ready to tackle a wood and glass Asiatic composite design. Currently that project sits half finished, still needing some siyahs attached after the first attempt came unglued. In addition I think my form was off slightly and if I ever complete that bow and try to string it, I have a feeling it's going to have a really screwy looking profile. So, lesson learned was this - start slow, make simpler designs and learn to master those before simply jumping right in at the deep end by trying to tackle an advanced design. So, I went back to basics. I have more Red Oak, some Maple, and some Hickory all of which I plan to use to create simple design longbows in order to improve my skills and try different things like cut out arrow shelves, or contoured handles, or backing with different materials. I'm sure there are some guys out there who would be able to make a highly complex design right off the first try but for the majority of new bowyers I think the approach should be slow, steady, and measured with lots of reading, looking at what other people have done, asking questions when you get stumped, and hey, if you break some it's no big deal as long as you learn from it.
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Good attitude, Kilted. I was one of those hard heads until others told me otherwise...
or until I listened! ;D I think it is difficult for some folks to slow down enough to be successful. They want it yesterday. I finally realized that patience is your most useful tool when it comes to wood bow building.
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Pat, thanks for this thread. It has inspirited and reassured me that the path I'm on is the right one. Oh, I'm sure I'm going to venture down the wrong trail on occassion. And, I just as sure that the wood will humble me, setting my feet again on the righteous path of a bowyer.
My first near attempt to building was thwarted by my lack of knowledge on how to handle a green sapling. It checked because, as I learned from you guys, I didn't seal it properly while I was waiting for it to dry.
My second attempt did produce a bow of the Sam Harper design boardbow. But, it came in 15# under the weight I had hope for. Again, you guys coached me--get it off the long string and on to brace soon. I won't make that mistake, again.
Attempt three, a BL stave. I spent 10 days trying to chase a ring. It got one tiny check in the belly. This time I was armed with knowledge most of which was gleaned from here. I sealed and put it away to dry and to wait for me be better prepared for ring chasing.
My 4th attempt is a hickory stave sitting behind me as I type. While cleaning the sap wood away so I could better see the vertical grain to lay out the bow, I realized that I was actually chasing a ring. I spent 4 hours laying out the design of the bow on the stave yesterday, completely wearing out the errasor from my pencil. But, I'm satified that I have one grain running through the center of my would be bow now. Today, I would have loved to own a bandsaw to reduce this 6x6 inch wedge to something more managable, because I suck with a hatchet. haha. I was able to use my circular saw and handsaw to reduce the stave to a 2x3 piece. Me and my shurform and draw knife have a lot to do in the week or 2.
I walked around my farm this afternoon roving with my first bow. It was a good time. I saw 3 rabbits and woodcock and managed to knock the bark off a couple stomps. I found myself wishing it was autumn with rabbits, squirrels and deer to hunt. Quickly a voice inside my head said "patience, your not ready. You have a bow to build and archery skills to learn."
I'm glad it's spring and there's hickory stave sitting in my office. And, I'm very appreciative of this website and all the talented bowyers who take time to answer questions they've answered 100's of time before.
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I've been fortunate to have had some good teacher's...first was Mike Conkle who helped me make a kid's bow out of osage during the Tn. Classic how many years ago now...6 or 7? ;D Then there's this other gentleman you guys may have heard of...Pappy, who has been there giving me direction all along almost from the beginning. Although Pappy headed off some of my mistakes, I've still made a lot of mistakes along the way such as staying on the long string to long and missing weight..I guess that's a common one. I've been inspired by a lot of the bows and folks here on PA and what is possible in making a selfbow, still a work in progress we're all contributing too.
Pat had a lot of good advice for new bowyer's. With the wide range of woods out there capable of making a bow, ask questions before starting the design. Then, take it slow! Pay attention to what you're doing...you can't put that wood back on. One of the most common mistakes I see folks make during the Classic is thinning a limb to much on one edge of the belly then the other. It is one of the main things I stress and try to get newbies to pay attention to. There is a lot to pay attention to when making a bow for the first time without a lot of experience. All the more reason to ask questions as you go.
It's a fun journey, at least it has been for me. I guess the end of the journey will be when I'm no longer able to create shavings. I'm sure the learning will never end, there's always something new to try. ;)
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Man how did i miss this one! Great post Pat ! I can relate to alot of whats been posted. I was one of those in the begining that was scared to jump in and start scraping on the stave....for fear of wrecking it ! But like a hear alot.
If you aren't breaking them, you ain't making them ! and one more i like. The only way to fail, is never to start !
This is a great journey i'm on, and i'm glad i'm not the only one going to bed thinking of building bows and waking up thinking of bows ! ;D
I might have to make an appointment with DR. Keenan :D
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Hi, my name is Dustin, and im a bow-aholic. wow im not crazy after all. I, like many others, have a background in woodworking. i figured i would make a bow, took a few quick instruction websites at face value, bought some poplar took my time only to have it blow up in my face (literally). but your right about learning, the most elementary mistakes are the ones you have already made. (and this continues) i only have about 8 3/4 bows under my belt, first 2 blew, next 3 worked two of them pretty well, 6th one was static recurve 57inches long, learned a lot with that one, lifted large pieces off the back from over stressing and having too high brace, 7 and 8 were kids bows with serious grain violations, learned how forgiving backing is. i am currently working on a (hopefully) 90lb-ish hickory flatbow w/ very wide limbs 2.25" to the fades. and a gemsbok selfbow that i could find almost no information on building until i someone here piped up on a post i made asking for help. the problem with bow building is the more you do it, the more you want to do it, and for me at least, the more relaxing it is doing it.
to any new bowyer out there. dont expect a great looking great shooting bow on your first try, it is possible but not likely. ive only been making bows for 9 months, and im already on bow 9 and 10 (all but the gemsbok board bows) and im going to tackle my first stave next, from what i have researched its a completely different animal. DONT BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS, ill bet any one of us had the same question at some time or maybe still do.
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Wood is a contrary creature. Arguing with it usually gets you nowhere.
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Well put, Gargetter!
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Dang brother, makes me want to get out that IPE board and get after it... well said as usual bro.. Hawk. a/ho
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Beautifully put, Gargitter. Jawge
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Hi,
Well you should have seen my beautiful RD osageboo...worked on it for hours and hours and hours and it sure was a beauty...of course, watched the video and read the books and it sure was pretty...until I attempted to tiller my beauty and it blew up! If it had been a flute I coulda sold it for 300 smackers...but flutes don't blow up! I am back to reading and slowly working a mulberry stave...trying to actually "see" the grain lines...sure am looking forward to the T. Classic so I can at least see some self bows and maybe even hold one to try to get a clue. Have patience guys...total newby here...found my old Bear Grizzly recurve a few months back and found archery again and it sure is a pleasure...even have a very long half RD osage/boo purple heart handled back scratcher as a result of my wandering through archery world. Maybe I will even learn how to make and arrow and do a little knapping too down the road.
Newby Rand:-)
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Jawge told me somthing years ago when I first started trying to make selfbows. I have always passed these words on to others as they came and went..."listen with your eyes". The wood will tell you its limits if you just listen.
Stuck with me all these years...LOL
R.
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Roger, Excellent words of wisdom from a guy that knows. ;)
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A great post many of you have been a great help when Ive had questions,altho Ive read the books there is nothing like having someone to ask a question to.Finished my fourth bow yesterday a hackberry flat bow so Ill still have plenty of questions,Dont post anything on them much since I dont have the equipment and know how to post pictures.
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Thanks Dave. Hopefully, in the future, you can also help a new guy(s) out with their leap into wood bow building. 8)
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Very excellent thread. It's threads like these that let me accomplish a success on my first try, with 2nd rate wood. I did some homework, and everything I found lead to sites like these, and guys like Pat B. and Jawge constantly helping other bowyers. I rushed into my wood selection (anxious to start whittling a bow) and got a Red Oak Board and a Poplar Board ( :-[you guessed it Home Depot Special :-[). I think this actually helped me however, forcing me to take my time, read more posts, and ask a few questions. So all in all, I ended up with a Poplar backed, Red Oak Board Bow with Maple/Red Oak riser/grip that is 72" TtT, 70" NtN, and 50# @ 28" (with only a slight hinge in the lower limb towards the tip). I'd like to say thanks to all the bowyers on here that share their knowledge freely.
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Good thread Pat..
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I agree with just about every single post here.... thanks to all who have helped me out.
And to the newcomer read, read, read!
Thanks
Mike
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>>will sit and ponder and stew and fuss and study and ask and still not ever hit a lick, for fear of failure.<<
Paralysis by analysis
I didn't notice if this was mentioned. There are so many helpful folks here it's a good idea to learn to take and post good photos of your bow project especially if you are in an area without a lot of bowyers to assist.
Is Mickey's site still up? I think MSN canned it along with JD Jones site.