Author Topic: Why are Western Indian bows so short?  (Read 25912 times)

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Offline Traxx

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2008, 08:43:10 pm »
Oh,
Another point,that i forgot to bring up,that falls into my previous points,and helps to make better sense of it all is this.The early Native people from this region,were by most cases a small people compared to people nowdays.Average height was 5 ft for women and about 5"4" for the men.Even with blood of other nations and non Native blood,you still see evidence of this today.Factor that into the equation,and the shorter bows make even more sense.

Offline mullet

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2008, 08:56:06 pm »
 This is turning into a pretty cool thread. Thanks for the ideas Todd. It has me thinking about using Eastern Red cedar for shorter draw bows. I've run into a lot of problems breaking ERC bows trying to make traditional draw-length Eastern woodland bows. I think unbacked and made for less stressfulll draw lengths they would make for some fast, short bows. It's not much different than Yew or Juniper.
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Offline juniper junkie

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2008, 10:54:39 pm »
Todd, I enjoy your input. one other question is that "was there trading going on between tribesmen which would have dictated the type of bow based on the "expense" of the bow from the bowyer? just as there were arrowmakers whithin the tribe, I believe there were certain individuals that specialized in the manufacture of bows and some commanded very high prices for them, these bows would have to be earned and not just anybody could posess  such a fine weapon. this would also be a statement of their wealth and prestige in the tribe. these fine weapons would be sought after by any hunter. David T. I agree that the longer shaft helped a lot in the paradox, but the phragmites reed that was used mostly by klamath and other basin tribes is somewhat weak, maybe they could use larger cane if they left it longer? just some thoughts.

Offline mullet

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2008, 11:03:00 pm »
  And maybe the resources for arrows dictated how strong the bows could be?
Lakeland, Florida
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Offline Keenan

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2008, 11:15:57 pm »
 Great thread and good thoughts. Our complicated lives often bleed over into complicated thoughts in every area and that being said I would give more weight to easy and convenience. Making a long yew bow or juniper bow just wasn't practical or probable. Hard enough when you have power tools but when considering stone tool bows knots and splitting become bigger factors. Splitting yew is not the same as splitting Osage or other woods. Splitters tend to travel more and knots can blow out a split in half a heart beat.
  Hunting condition and brushy conditions are probably the other biggest factor.

Offline Traxx

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2008, 12:23:35 am »
Hey Dave!!
How the heck ya been?As you know,I preferr to talk about such things in person,than over one a these dang contraptions.LOL

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2008, 03:37:35 pm »
Uhm! Which Dave you referring to? There are a lot of us out there.  ;D
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Offline Traxx

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2008, 03:52:16 pm »
Well,
It was directed to Dave Cheney,but what the heck!You can respond as well if you like.The message still counts.LOL

Offline David Long

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2008, 04:21:18 pm »
I was thinking the same thing D. Tiller! Daves are like..well...everywhere. Back to the short bows. A hunter probably made several styles of bow, according to his immediate needs. With the location, season, and relative ease of gathering other foods and game archery tackle would have changed. When elk were the best bet (least effort for the greatest return) a fella would carry an elk bow. But some areas were better ambush/blind areas, just like today, and others were more spot and stalk in more open country. So even within the category of big game, one guy might have chosen between design options. When that time passed and small game was best, a fella would carry a bow designed for this style of hunting. And then there were wars too. Where I live, one can find yew in certain areas and not others. You might have to walk 100 miles to get yourself a good piece of yew, but right there on the hillside might be a great piece of juniper or maple. Here again exact location fed into the easy/hard equation that Keenan and others mentioned. So one hunter made several styles of bows perhaps. I think by the time big game wasn't so good and another option was coming on, the big game weapon might be shot out and a little long in tooth anyway. Dave
NW Montana

peterslongbow

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2008, 04:52:31 pm »
If you look at a modern recurve bow, you will see how short they are compared to longbows. I love longbows and simple bows but if you look at a Haida bow (I have seen a collection in the anthropoligy musem in Vancouver bc, go there if you get a chance) you will see that they had the best yew on the planet, they used sinews, they recurved the tips, there bows are highly refined works of art like everything they made. A price tag of $10 000 in today terms would not be silly.

They made the bow as short as they could, they made it as light draw weight as they could for its use. The reason for this is because as a people with LOTS of artistic value to their culture and ones with some of the most impressive art, homes, ... on the planet, they of course found the best design they could.  It is also safe to say their arrows, in todays terms would be worth say $100 each if you imagine the time involved

 They had a bow that lasted a lifetime so, like all their belongings it was a very valuable thing that had a very specialized person working on it for a very long time from harvest to finish. Not everyone had or needed a bow, as they had not effort needed to collect fish and shell fish, they only needed to hunt for extra food. Food on the Haidia Gwai (up by alaska) was overflowing up until it became a resource to be extracted in huge amounts for sale to city folks, they it was gone in a flash.

Compare these bows to English bows, and as far as war goes these are some of the best, the design is great for getting lots of bows from a tree, they were easy to make. But for the Haida these would be crude, ugly, primitive weapons made without the effort it takes to make one of beauty, made in a way that someone would have to spend their lives in service of it to the king, the Haidia were free people and did not really have people of authority above them to force them to shot all day, haida did many other things with their time, and when the picked up a bow they did not need to strain their bodies, they were looking for something automatic like a gun, that bow design came from thousands of years of finding the perfect balance.

But, I did see a slightly longer bow, thin, yew wood, very narrow, without recurve, this was a bow found in british columbia of unknown tribe. I was very beautiful too, but without he art work.

The west coast peoples were many diverse and they can not be talked about in the same sentence as some sort of group any more than the whole of Europe could be, but it seems the Haidia wanted there bows to be very easy to pull back, easy to carry and store and of course beautiful to the eye. They did not want to shot far or hard, they wanted to shot perfect and natural and instinctive.

If you imagine pulling back a light bow with the perfect balance, with a perfect arrow, so smooth and so nice to shot, with no hand shock and very little noise, and how fast and slick that arrow would go, it would be a very prized bow, compared to the english war bow.

I wouldn't imagine there was to many highly skilled archers compared to the peak time in English warbow history, but you have to remember a english archer shots bows eats and sleeps, goes along with his despirate life in service to his masters, he gets good at this on thing. Haida were free people, they had no rent, no royal duties, archery was one of many of their things they might do, and they were 1st and foremost artists looking for the most pleasing lines in everything they did, functional of course but funtion without form was crude and primitive to them.

I am sure they would find our ways of life today rather primitive too.


check out  - to see some bows from he haida

http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/aborig/haida/






Offline El Destructo

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2008, 05:18:06 pm »
Link dont work........all I get is......

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peterslongbow

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2008, 05:33:12 pm »
Oh sorry try that, you will have to click around to find some archery stuff, there is a picture of a guy with a longer wider war bow there, thats not haida.

Ps the haida did not have one design for their bows either, they had one "ideal" design and the most important part of the bow was the artwork on the back, of course the bow would have to work perfect but the art on the bow WAS the bow.

http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/aborig/haida/havwa01e.shtml

Offline stickbender

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Re: Why are Western Indian bows so short?
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2008, 10:47:13 pm »


     Nah, it was because a shorter bow took less time to make, and they could get out of the hut sooner, and have some peace and quiet!  When are you going to be done with that?!!  Soon little whining otter.  You better clean up all those shavings!  Yes little whining otter.  I thought you were done with that, you put a string on it!  Yeah, it done, me go hunt.  Bring you big Grizzly bear.  ......not dead though!

                                                                           Wayne