for those who hunt with stone

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

ok, if you by chance read my post in the hunting pics forum you may know that i have had bad luck hunting with stone points,  for a referance i will include some pics of what i had been hunting with.  so with that in mind, i know stone can kill, no surprise there, but i have some of my own theories on what works and what doesnt. i have done several tests and had enough experience that i can assume a few things. compare them with what you have found and let me know the circumstances
   1-  most of the pictures i see of stone point kills are shot with a laminated bow, which not in all cases, but most of the time have better penetration qualities.
    2- to get an honest punch out of both sides, the arrow needs to miss ribs and any other hard obstruction.
    3- wide points penetrate far less than narrow points
     4- the union between shaft and point is extremely important, but still having a great smooth union doesnt insure good penetration.
       5- the arrow must fly perfectly straight to maximize its energy usage.

ok so,  what i ask of you is an honest answer to your experiences. sometimes we have an image to uphold and dont want to talk about wounding\losing deer and seeming unethical. so if that is the case, send me a pm of your experiences and anything someone would share with me would be between us only.
 
 also, i think the key is to use bird point or very small points to get optimum penetration. unfortunately those points dont meet legal requirements.  but i know we all dont follow all the rules sometimes and i know someone here as shot living deer with tiny points and could offer info to me, and ofcourse if you pm me and confess i will keep your little secret and not judge under any circumstances.
    all i ask for is honest accounts of success or non-success.  so if you have shot five deer with stone points but only actually recovered one, nows the time to share your experience privately with me. im not a game warden or anything like, i just want to hear some or the horror stories or truths behind most stone point hunts to better serve my own purposes.

the bows i have been hunting with are in the 75# range. selfbows, and they are well made. i have plenty experience in making good bows that shoot fast.  so for a baseline, the last deer i shot in montana at 35 yards got a complete passthrough. through ribs in and out and through the meat of one shoulder.  that was with a steel point that i made. but the buck i shot with a stone point at 15 yards only hit the rib cage and only got about 4 inches of penetration off the same bow. the point was dacite, about 7\8 wide and 3"  long. good sharp point with very minimal serrations.

so please share with me your experiences whether one here or in private. im not ashamed to say that i have had failure i just want to know what i am have done wrong.  so please include you bow specs, point specs, yardage, shot placement, hit ribs  etc...... the more info the better  thank you much- Ryan

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[Pat B]

I have been hunting for 3 years with stone points but have yet to take a shot. I'll have to pass until I have something to compare.
  Is this your first kill with stone?       A 75# bow and a point with a 3:1 ratio that yours appears to have should be no problem with penetration. I'd say give it another try and see what the results are.
     Pat

[Ryano]

It just sounds like you had a run of bad luck to me Ryan. This is my first year hunting with stone points (obsidian) so I'll let you know how it goes.   I bare Shafted each arrow and got them shooting flawlessly before I even fletched them up, I think good arrow flight and shot placement is more important than what the tips made of. I do think the transition of arrow to tip is important, it needs to be as smooth as possible for good penitration. I will say this, I've lost more than one deer with modern archery equipment. It all comes down to Shot placement, no matter what your using. When your shooting at a live moving critter you can never be absolutely sure whether your arrow will hit its mark or not. Live animals don't hold still like a target. No matter how good a shot you are if your a hunter your going to lose a animal or two at some point. It sucks, but its all just part of hunting.  

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

thanks guys,  Pat- I have huntd with stone for 3 years now and have lost 4 deer and no recoveries. 1 was at 15 yards the others were under 10 yards, all perfectly broadside.  i dont want to keep shooting deer up with stone and not finding them, so im goin to give up for now. i just want to know from other hunters what they have experienced for my own satisfaction.

Ryano- i agree for sure about arrow flight and point transitions. my arrows all flight great and the transitions are very smooth and tapered. i used titebond to fill in any divots around the sinew and to smooth it all up.

[knightd]

I have taken several hogs with stone points. Most of the points where 7/8 x 2" or around that and bows from 50 to 70# had a couple pass thru and some only 8" of penatration. I only lost one hog that ran off through the saw grass. I took one over 400# with a obsidian point and cane arrow 60# bow..It sounds as you are just haveing a run of bad luck.. I have a freind that shoots 65# on a compound and has hit and lost 5 deer and 1 we found 2 days after he shot it. Arrow went in high and did not exit so no blood trail  the deer traveled over 400 yrds..

[Pat B]

After 4 losses I would do the same as you.  You have definitely given it your best shot!!!    Pat

[mullet]

 I had the same problem the first time we hunted the Alexacarrie Plantation. I lost 3 hogs in the thick thorns and palmetto's. Two with stone points, one with a Wendsel Woodsman. We have that one on camera with the arrow tucked in tight behind the shoulder and then the hog biting it off. I killed two more that weekend. The two hogs recovered were pass-through shots. the other three were not, even though the last one was a perfect shot with blood pumping out on film. But thirty yards into the thorns we found the arrow bitten off and no blood.
 
 After that trip, I changed all my stone points to 1" wide and 2 3/4" long and around 190 grains. And I was going to shoot no less than 65 to 70# to try for a pass-through shot . I figured it had to help with more blood coming out. I did that for hogs , though, I don't think points or bow weight like that is needed for deer.

  It's thick down here, I think you have just had some bad luck. Then again, more blood might help.  I lost one at Chassaowitzca after shooting it twice at 20 yards with a 30-06 and watching the bullet hit both times with the last one flipping it rearend over the head. Before we could get across the creek it had crawed off in a huge palmetto thicket and we never found it after looking for 4 hours.

[kdub]

Maybe a good way to test the bird points legally would be to shoot hogs with them.  Here, the arrow width requirements are for game animals only, and hogs are not considered a game animal.  Just a suggestion.

[mullet]

 As soon as I get back down to the ranch I get to hunt I'm going to try them. I've made quite a few small points, not by choice , though.

[Papa Matt]

Twisted, I have nothing to compare, so sorry.  But I do have a whole lot of respect for what you're trying to do.     Good form, ol boy.

~~Papa Matt

[hawkbow]

I have taken deer, mule deer and whitetail with stone points and a self bow... only one lost.... that insance was my fault gut shot a doe at twenty yards and was very young and inexperiences... have also taken turkey with stone points and laminated glass bows... in my opinoion stone points are even more deadly than steel and penetrate through bone and hide better because of the serrations... my guess is you are on a run of bad luck... believe me I can relate... I recently missed a possible world record bull elk because of equipment failure... keep at it... maybe try steel for a while to gain confidence and then give the rocks a try again... hunt safe, hunt honorably and  enjoy the journey... HAWK a/ho

[Ryan_Gill_HuntPrimitive]

thanks for the help and encouragement guys. this site is full of understanding people as opposed to other sites where i would be blasted for losing deer.   its somthing i dont like, so thats why i seek more help before i try to kill anymore with stone. im goin to hunt with steel for a little while more, i spotted a really nice buck the other day so i want every chance i can get for taking him with my bow. if i can get him down then i may go back to trying stone on a doe.    perhaps it is just a run of bad luck. i know shooting at the coyotes lately has got my confidence down a bit, they jump out of the way at the last second..lol   but i havent missed any deer yet this year, havent recovered all since that buck episode but other than that my shooting has been dead on. i figure once i get another down i'll feel better about it.   i guess i cant complain, i've brought 2 deer home so far this season already, it'd be hard to convince anyone thats bad luck huh?- Ryan

[DanaM]

I will be hunting stone points for the first time this year Opener is tommow, hope it goes well

[GregB]

I haven't hunted with stone, so I can help you there...but just wanted to let you know I respect your attitude and concern over the loss deer. Your heart is definitely in the right place. Hopefully with all the feed back you get, you'll post your conclusions eventually on hunting with stone. I've been given it some thought myself, and at this point am undecided...