Author Topic: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?  (Read 48208 times)

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Offline Red Dwarf

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Can someone please help me out with a few basics here, I am a little confused? ???

Why is positive tiller required on a longbow?
Is it required on recurves?
How does the desired amount vary with shooting style? EG Split finger or 3 under, high or low grip on the bow?

Red Dwarf




Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2008, 11:55:29 pm »
Hmmmm....I'm not sure I know what positive tiller is.  I'd be interested in hearing the replies on this one. ;D
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Offline Skeaterbait

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2008, 12:38:45 am »
Don't really have my head wrapped around it either, but from what I read, positive tiller happens from having the bottom limb slightly stiffer than the top, therefore, the tiller is slightly greater (or positive) from the bottom. This is done for split finger style VS three under. However, if I read it correctly, even tiller would be for three under when to me it seems you would want it the opposite.

Offline Ryano

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2008, 12:44:38 am »
Because on a bow with symetrical limbs your not pulling from the exact center of the bow, usualy any where from a 1 to 1 1/2" above center. So the lower limb needs to be slightly stiffer to keep the limbs in time. More so if you shoot three fingers under less if you shoot split finger. This is also why some people prefer the asymetrical limbs with a shorter bottom limb, then its not really nessasary to have positive tiller...... ::)
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Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2008, 01:13:36 am »
Because on a bow with symetrical limbs your not pulling from the exact center of the bow, usualy any where from a 1 to 1 1/2" above center.

Uh...OK?


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Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline adb

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2008, 01:38:13 am »
Positive tiller means that the string is further away from the limb when the bow is at brace on one limb, than exactly the corresponding place on the other limb.  +/- tiller is usually not more than 1/4" to 3/8". In other words... if you braced your bow and measured 6" up the limb from center and then measured the distance to the string (like brace height), and then did the same on the other limb, if there is any difference, it is either + or - tiller.

Ryan is correct, with equal length limbs (meaning the bow is tillered at its geographic center), you want the top limb slightly weaker, as it becomes shorter when you grip the bow. Because you grip the bow at it's center, this makes the top of your hand (which is the same as the arrow rest) about 1 1/2" above center. This makes the bottom limb that much longer, so it needs to be slightly stiffer to compensate. Some people, and Dean Torges is a big proponent of this, make their bows with a shorter bottom limb to compensate for this. Meaning... the bow is now tillered at the arrow rest. With this style you can make the tiller even. Also, with a shorter bottom limb, the fulcrum of the bow is now at the arrow rest, not in the middle of your hand. This is an advantage, because after you release the arrow, the bottom limb doesn't pull forward and "drag anchor" so to speak. I've made bows both ways, and I do prefer the shorter bottom limb, but they are much harder to tiller correctly, because it's a bit of an optical illusion.

Hope this helps!
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 01:41:31 am by adb »

Offline adb

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2008, 01:49:09 am »
Here's another scenario to help... after you've tillered a bow with equal length limbs, and you've mounted your arrow rest the standard 1 1/2" above center to compensate for your hand, hold the bow on your outstretched finger to balance it at the arrow rest. What happens? Well... the bottom limb will fall to the floor because it is heavier (because it is longer). This same scenario happens when you shoot. After you release, the bottom limb will "fall" forward because it is longer (& heavier). With a shorter bottom limb, the balance point is at the arrow rest (not the center of the grip), making the bow balance perfectly in your hand.
+ve tiller comes in with "equal length limb" bows. The bottom limb should be slightly stiffer to compensate for it increased length.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 01:52:16 am by adb »

Offline adb

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2008, 02:01:37 am »
Look carefully at the pic of this bow at brace. It has been tillered at it's geographic center (the middle of the bow) so both limbs are equal length. The arrow rest is 1" above center, meaning the center of the bow is 1" down the grip. If we go say 4" up the top limb from center and measure the brace height, and do the same thing with the bottom limb, you'll find the distance to the string is slightly more on the top limb... +ve tiller. This is good, because it means the top limb is weaker, and "bending more."
If I was to try and balance this bow at the arrow rest, the bottom limb would droop.

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« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 02:05:02 am by adb »

Offline NOMADIC PIRATE

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2008, 06:10:15 am »
Assymetrical limbs need positive tiller too
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Offline Pappy

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2008, 06:24:55 am »
Good explantion Ryan/adb .Thats how I do it ,just easier for me to show someone why that explane it.Good job on that. :) To much typeing.  ;) ;D
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Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2008, 09:43:04 am »
Yes, indeed. Excellent explanation by Ryan and adb. adb, the limbs on my bows are the same length. Sometimes I shorten  the fades ala Al Herrin to insure that sometimes not. My only disagreement is that my bows are don't dive to the floor when I balance them at the rest by a finger. LOL. They don't. They really don't. :) Jawge
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Offline Ryano

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2008, 09:44:36 am »
Assymetrical limbs need positive tiller too

In theory they shouldn't Manny.  ??? Not speaking from experience. I hate Asymmetrical limbs. Tried it it about twice and decided it wasn't for me.  ;)
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Offline adb

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2008, 09:55:49 am »
Asymmetrical limbed bows are a bit more difficult to tiller, that's for sure. They seem to trick your eyes. As far as +ve tiller with these bows, they should be tillered even, Manny. There is an excellent article in The Bowyer's Journal about this very subject, written by Dean Torges. His arguement for not tillering with +ve tiller is very convincing. I had to read the article several times to rap my brain around it,but it very much makes sense. He says, if anything, you should tiller these bows even, or with -ve tiller in the top limb! I can't remember the issue of TBJ that it's in, but I'll look it up and post it asap. It's an interesting read.

Offline adb

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2008, 09:58:13 am »
Oh , yah... I forgot. It's on his website. www.bowyersedge.com. The article is "Tillering the Organic Bow." Check it out... interesting reading.

DCM

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Re: Positive tiller..why is it required? How does it vary with shooting style?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2008, 12:13:13 pm »
So called "asym" bows require some positive tiller just not as much positive.

How come nobody talked about nock travel?

IMHO, this topic cannot be completely or accurately discussed without understanding the phenomenon, and it's impliications for tuning, and "tiller." 

Tillering, in the classical use of the word, is after all simply an effort to control the vertical travel of the arrow, with the objective to have the arrow leave the bow as close to perpendicular to the string as practical but with enough room for adjustment with nock point to avoid interference with the arrow rest.  The definition of the word is instructive in this regard:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tiller[4]

Practice from antiquity, as it relates to all natural bows, would be informative here as well I think.  Arrow pass at or near center enjoys an advantage as I understand it, particularly in bendy handle designs for obvious reasons.  It was not until bows with very stiff risers, deep palm swell and glass limbs were introduced that we became fascinated with having the fulcrum of the bow hand be at dimensional center, as I understand it.  For good reason, introducing this asymetry does nothing but tax the material in the upper limb unnecessariy, in my view.  If you are using material with gobs of extra work capacity and can afford to, I can see how it is much simpler to setup a form and devise a lam taper formula to glue up this type of bow.

Why do people, not in this discussion but in general, historically, at least in the period after and mostly influenced by TBB as far as I can tell, refer to bows where arrow pass is 1" to 2" above center as being "symetrical?"  In fact they are bows with shorter upper limb.  Then, when confronted with this conundrum they refer to bows with arrow pass at center as, oddly, "shorter lower limb"  when in fact they are equal lower limb?  It makes this discussion so much more difficult.  I'd argue symetrical better describes a bow where arrow pass is at dimensional center.  Regardless of where we position our hands while drawing a bow, what the arrow sees on the loose is the only thing that matters.  And when you look at the position of the nock point on a bow where arrow pass is above center, it sure as heck ain't symetrical, rather the upper segment is significantly shorter.

Sorry, can't agree symetrical bows are generally or universally "harder" to build, just different.  It's all about what you get used to.  If anything asym bows, arrow pass above center, are harder to build because one must compensate doubly, once for the inherent asym of the archers' hand position, and in addition for the asym introducted by raising the arrow pass above center. 

Great discussion so far.  Would love to hear nock travel, spring theory discussed.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 12:16:28 pm by DCM »