Author Topic: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)  (Read 26302 times)

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Offline JackCrafty

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Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« on: September 19, 2008, 02:54:33 pm »
Ok guys, now that I've got a few double curves under my belt, I'm looking for some feedback....and questions.  I'm hoping to be able to make accurate reproductions....or at least get close to the real thing with the limited info that we have.

This bow is a reproduction of a NA sinew backed "double curve" used by several tribes (Apache, Blackfoot, etc.). Here are the stats:

- Started with 48" long stave of ashe juniper, 90% heartwood, with a slight natural deflex in the middle.  Seasoned about 6 months.
- After shaping (using combination of steam and dry heat) the bow is 47-1/2" long and about 46" ntn.
- 1-1/16" wide mid limb and 1/2" wide tips.  Tapered smoothly from middle to tips.
- The limbs have taken about 1-1/4" of set.
- Draw weight 45# @ 22".
- Sinew string (elk leg).
- Brace height 4-1/2".
- Shoots 320 grain arrow at 138 fps. (the arrow in the photos)
- Mass is 10.9 oz  + string .4 oz (175 grains) = 11.3 oz total
- Backed with 2 thin courses elk leg sinew (1/16" thick total).  The sinew was applied with fish glue and tightly wrapped with twine until hardened (2 weeks).
- Dried for 1 month before shooting and final tillering.
- Painted on back with acrylic paints and finished with a few coats of tung oil.

I tillered the bow to 16" draw without sinew.  It was about 35 lb at this draw.  The outer 8" of the tips does not bend...I intentionally deflexed the tips.

OK, here are some personal observations and opinions on this type of bow:

- Many of these bows have "built in" stack.....the NA bowyers were aware of stack and used it to some advantage. This bow stacks at about 22" but is smooth up to this point.  The advantage of the built in stack might be to cause the archer to release the arrow at just the right draw length--by making it harder to maintain a grip (Laubin) but I don't think this is the only reason.  I think the stack is a "safety" feature that helps prevent overdraw and breakage...something that could easily happen when hunting on horseback or during combat.
- The sinew doesn't add much to the performance of the bow.  I have a couple others of this design (without backing) and I haven't seen a difference in performance.  I think the sinew is a safety feature.
- Very little hand shock.
- Wrist slap is a problem...unless a stiff wrist guard is worn.  In any case, this makes the bow noisy to shoot.  I don't think the low brace height was used when hunting quietly.  The bow must have been braced higher for "stealth" operations.  The fact that the bowstring was tied at one end seems to indicate the need to adjust string tension and brace height.
- This particular bow has a rectangular cross section and no sinew on the sides.  I think this is the easiest design to deal with.  I can adjust the thickness and the width of the limbs without replacing any sinew.

I'm not sure how the originals were tillered (we don't have many full draw pics of NA's) but I think the center portion should be almost straight at full draw, with the string angle @ 90o to the tips.  So far, that's the way I've been tillering all my bows of this type.  There are some original bows with a very pronounced reflex in the middle (I'm not sure why) but most of the examples have a shallow reflex....making it reasonable to assume that this reflex straightens out in the majority of cases.

The grip I use has been called a Sioux grip (Laubin).  The index finger takes most of the force and the others lend support.  I don't use the ring finger at all with bows under 35#.

These bows are simple in design but are not easy to make.  They require attention to detail, foresight, and a very good understanding of the wood you are working with.  If you don't shape it just right, the wood's memory will come back to haunt you...and you'll have to live with it (you can't heat or steam the bow after the sinew is applied).  Also, these bows intentionally push the wood to its limits.  However, they have a certain artistic quality that makes them well worth the trouble.

(Let me know if you can't see the pics...I can make and album and post a direct link).


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« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 01:46:41 am by jackcrafty »
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Papa Matt

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2008, 05:01:57 pm »
Looks like a neat bow...Is it fast? I see you say the sinew appears to be more of a safety feature, have you sinewed any bows before where it did add speed and/or cast? You say it is ashe juniper, do you mean laminated ash and juniper or a species of juniper that is called ash juniper? Got me confused on that one.

~~Papa Matt

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2008, 05:12:01 pm »
Papa Matt, ashe juniper (Juniperus ashei) is a type of juniper that grows here in TX:

http://uvalde.tamu.edu/herbarium/juas.htm

This bow shoots a 320 gr arrow at about 138fps.  I would say it's about average.  The speed is slow compared to a longer draw bow, though.

I've sinewed other bows, maybe 6 or 7, and haven't noticed an increase in speed in any of them.  But the sinew is only 1/16" thick.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Bowbound

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2008, 05:15:39 pm »
nice bow, the curves are  :o

A design to keep in mind as i have some juniper but it is drying 5 hours drive away an i can't get it till x-mas ???
I have little knowledge of the design but it sure looks good to me even if its not historically accurate. ;D

Do you think the speed would increase a little with extra length and draw length. Like- 54" ntn and 27" draw? 

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2008, 05:19:55 pm »
Thanks Josh....yeah, I think the speed would increase if made longer (and with a longer draw).  I could also increase the width - which would allow me to increase the draw length....but the originals were narrow.
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Bowbound

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2008, 05:25:44 pm »
If the arrow was primed to the bow the speed would pick up too, it looks far too heavy and long. I reckon it's probably average speed but it looks better than many bows. Including most of mine ;)

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2008, 05:28:42 pm »
Josh, the arrow is a composite....phragmites with a hardwood foreshaft.  It's actually quite light (320 grains or about 21 grams).
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Bowbound

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2008, 05:32:01 pm »
SUPER LIGHT THEN!

Most of mine are twice that so i guess its not too much of a difference.
At some stage ill have to make arrows like that

Offline NOMADIC PIRATE

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2008, 07:09:59 pm »
coll little bow, nice handle working area
NORTH SHORE, HAWAII

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2008, 07:24:03 pm »
Thanks Pirate
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2008, 09:16:04 pm »
Very nice bow, jackcrafty. Jawge
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If you ain't breakin' you ain't makin!

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2008, 10:04:11 pm »
Thanks George
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline welch2

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2008, 10:12:16 pm »
Very nice work , love the string . What did you cover the sinew with ?And  Is that plum bark on the tips ?

Ralph

Offline JackCrafty

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2008, 02:11:12 am »
Ralph, thanks, and no that's not plum bark...it's paint.  I mixed red with a little bit of black and it ended up being a wine color.  Originally the entire back was painted black...I added the reddish paint later.  The entire bow is coated with 3 or 4 applications of pure tung oil.  The string is pure sinew...with no coating of any kind.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 10:55:08 am by jackcrafty »
Any critter tastes good with enough butter on it.

Patrick Blank
Midland, Texas
Youtube: JackCrafty, Allergic Hobbit, Patrick Blank

Where's Rock? Public Waterways, Road Cuts, Landscape Supply, Knap-Ins.
How to Cook It?  200° for 24hrs then 275° to 500° for 4hrs (depending on type), Cool for 12hr

Offline sailordad

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Re: Tillering and Shooting a Double Curve Bow (Not for BOM)
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2008, 11:28:39 am »
that is one cool little bow 8)

love that natural string too,a sinew string do you forsee any trouble with itin wet weather and or the longevity of it?

once again cool stick


                                                                         tim
i always wanted a harley,untill it became the "thing to ride"
i ride because i love to,not to be part of the crowd