Mary Rose Replica Bow Build-Along--An Entrance into the World of War Bows

[jcougar]

I would say there would be plenty of interest in it for an article.  Have you shot any arrows for distance yet?  I bet you could really "reach out and touch someone" with that thing!

[mikefreezn]

Hey this is awesome JD!    What talent, who knew such a thing ran in the family?  This is really cool.  Great Job!

Your sis,
H

[duffontap]

Jcougar,

I havn't shot any for distance yet.  The day I took the bow to the beach it was too windy to really do any flight shooting.  Anyway, that bow will only shine for distance when I can draw it all the way. 

M+H,

Thanks for checking in.  Do you think I could get a job at Sutter now?

               J. D. Duff

[duffontap]

I meant to say, I'll start on arrows here in a couple hours.  I'll do a day on strings and post my progress on getting into a heavy bow.  Marlon has been helping a lot with this.

             J. D. Duff

       

[duffontap]

Mary Rose Arrows:  Shafting.

While we have less than 200 surviving examples of Medieval war bows, we have over 3,500 Medieval arrows from the Mary Rose alone.  As I continue on in this project, I never cease to be amazed at how advanced the bows and arrows were 500 years ago.  The arrows, for example, reveal a pretty thorough knowledge of flight dynamics that aren’t even universally understood today.  More on that later.  Here’s a sample of what we know of the Mary Rose arrows:



Length:
According to the Mary Rose museum, most of the arrows found averaged about 76cm (29.921 inches).  The shortest arrow found was 61cm (24.015 inches) and the longest arrow found was 81cm (31.889 inches).

Substance: 
Again, according to the Mary Rose museum, most of the arrows were made from Poplar, with others made from Beech, Ash and Hazel.  Pip says in his book, Medieval War Bows, that Ash was the favored wood, but was in short supply, so they also used Aspen and Oak.  I would suppose that any wood on that list would be fine for replicas with Ash being a good first choice.

Diameter and Taper: 
All arrows, regardless of length, were 1/2” at the head and 3/8” at the nock.  The shorter arrows tended to be 1/2” diameter for 2/3 of their length (or so) and then tapering to the nock.  The bulk of the arrows were around 30” in length tapering evenly from the head to the nock.  If 1/2” diameter doesn’t sound big—it is.  Compare the tip of this 1/2” war shaft to this heavy 23/64” hunting shaft! 



Weight:
Tim Baker says in TBB vol. 3 that the Medieval war arrows were not likely over 800-900 grains.  This may be due to the confusion over war arrows caused by the ‘standard arrow’—an almost arbitrarily chosen set of dimensions that is not based on the Mary Rose artifacts.  My experience so far has been that an arrow shaft made from White Oak, to the average length and full, tip-to-tail taper, will weigh a solid 1,000 grains.  Add an armor-piercing head and the weight takes another jump.  (More on bodkins this week).

Making Shafting:



I don’t really know an easy answer to this one.  The shafts I made I did the hard way with a hand plane.  I’ve been able to get my hands on Aspen, White Oak, and Poplar but I’ve only made Oak shafting so far.  I simply sawed out 1/2” by 1/2” blanks and planed in the taper.  After the taper was right I planed off the corners and made round shafting just like many of you have done.  (This process is shown very well by the late Jay Massey in TBB vol. 1). 

Perhaps an easier route would be to take 1/2” hardware store dowels and taper the last 10” like many of the shorter Mary Rose arrows were done.  However, the best flight arrows would undoubtedly be the longer arrows made with tip-to-tail tapers.

Tomorrow, I’ll talk about nocks and fletchings.  Wednesday, or Thursday I’ll do a piece on bodkins—that will be an interesting one I think. 

Take Care,

        J. D. Duff

[Badger]

They had a clear understanding of arrows obviously, the more forward weight the better as far as accuracy and consistency, also heavier arrows are far more efficient and will be less radical to slight changes in draw length, I think we have a ways to go before we catch these guys of the past. Steve

[duffontap]

That's just what I'm thinking Badger.  As far as I can think, there isn't any way to make arrows that heavy without tapering them like they did.  War bows are pretty wide in the handle (about 1 1/2") so there was a big paradox.  The taper on those arrows would help the arrow stabilize in flight faster, allowing for smaller fletchings, less surface and fletching drag and an overall longer, more accurate flights.  You're the flight expert--you know.


   J. D. Duff

[Milo]

JD, thank you so much for this buildalong...

Seriously, so many folks have done their own "warbow" things, and not to belittle them... this one is very informative all along the way. (forgive me those that I may offend).

One problem I have always found with the "specs for traditional war bows" of the era from 1100 - 1600 is the assumption is always made that all bows were made for equal height, equal stature bowyers...

Additionally, the assumption that all Yew is considered equal has always drove me crazy...

I am sorry, but coming from England, and my best friends houses having ceiling heights of 5'10"  leads me to instinctively (hmmm why's that?) assume the average height was no greater than 5'11.  (the houses were built from 1200 - 1500 ad)  Unless the builders wanted everyone to stoop all the time.

Someone with a stature of 5'11" would be almost convincingly overdrawing at 30".

Pacific NW yew does not grow anywhere near the same conditions as Italian Yew.  "Sorry, been both places many times.... the Pac NW has more in common with western Wales than Italy.... no offense."

Even here where I live, bowwoods from 30 miles west have a consistent and undeniable difference from bowwoods gathered 30 miles east.... every time...  Lets not get into semantics 2000 miles across.

To make the bow you have, under the perameters you have, is very informative....

Informative is the key. I have enjoyed this very much. But not to disregard Jaro and others who have specialized in this particular genre of bowyery, there are many more facets to this era than simply meet the "existing eye" so to speak.

I am quite certain that any wood that meet the specs of performing the desired needs were consistently used whenever possible.

Much along my own personal views that the Native americans where I am currently residing consistently used Cascara, Vinemaple, Oceanspray and other easily accessable and excellent bowwoods.... whereas only Yew and the occassional oak remain...

....let 400 years of open air and 20+ inches of annual rain in a temperate environment leave you with as much forensic evidence as dumping a body in sulphuric acid..

Yew survives here, and local history is only recorded verbally....
Not much to stare at.

Not to debunk anyone..

Please do not think this is really arguementative against anyone...

Just my own observations, theories, and ideas, fuelled by a whole bottle of Good Port and 45 minutes of typing and revising...

Either way.. good bow, great work, and fun topic...

Sloshy Milo


 

[duffontap]

Good thinking Milo,

I should remember to say more often that I don't claim to be an expert on this subject.  I have great interest in these bows and arrows and I research on them daily.  I've chosen to show my findings here because it's such an interesting topic and I enjoy what you and others have to say.  If it weren't for Pip and Jaro and others like them, I'd be pretty lost. 

You raise an interesting point that I've pondered quite a bit.  We're always saying that Yew survives so that's why we find so many Yew bows.  I've heard that that's the reason why all the Mary Rose bows were Yew (when the ship was supposedly carrying whitewood bows).  But, in the case of the Mary Rose tackle, why would an ash or poplar arrow shaft remain in nearly perfect condition while an ash or elm war bow rots away with not trace?  In my experience, Poplar will rot in a zip-lock baggy in Arizona.  This is not an argument, but rather a curiosity I've had with what survived and what didn't. 

Thanks for your insightful post Milo--keeping me thinking.

           J. D. Duff

[sumpitan]

The full-length Mary Rose arrows cannot have weighed 800-900 grains, don't know on what Tim based his view (or where he said that in TTBIII, for that matter). I've made a couple of alder shafts to the MR specs, and even they weigh 800 a piece. Add a light warhead and fletching and you're already over the 1000 grain mark. And this with a lightweight arrow wood, similar in density to aspen / poplar.

Tuukka

[thimosabbv]

Very, very well done.

I too have not yet fallen for yew being superior, but I've never tried it yet. I took my inspiration 1st off from reading about the Welsh archers and they were said to have used elm. So I too used elm and have been very happy with it. One day I'll get and try yew and compare the results. Anyways just fantastic how you went about this.

[Keenan]

 Outstanding buildalong JD. That is one of the finest yew bows that I ever seen,Your workmanship and skills as a master bowyer are shinning through on that one. I agree with Pat, This thread should be archived for all to see. Thanks for all your time and dedication to share the journey.   Keenan

[duffontap]

Sumpitan,
Tim Baker said that in 'Bows of the World' in his coverage of the English war bow.  I haven't tried Alder, Aspen or Poplar for arrows but I'm very familiar with their properties and you're tests confirm my suspicion.  My Oak shafts were 1,000 grains and I think Ash may go even heavier.  I don't know what a short and light bodkin would weigh but I would think around 300 grains minimum?  Long chainmale bodkins would have to weigh 500. 

Thimosabbv,
When you work with Yew there is an immediate understanding of why it has been so popular throughout archery history.  The performance is good, but it's especially easy to work (important with primitive tools).  But, your Elm bows prove that white woods are more than capable of being made into good war bows.  The fact that the English used Elm make is a legitimate material for replication.  A great bow is a great bow.

Keenan,
Thank you very much.  I appreciate it.  It's late deer season and I haven't seen so much as a slug in three days.  Hunting hard tomorrow.

              J. D. Duff


More on arrows today....

[duffontap]

Medieval War Arrows:  Nocks and Fletching

One of the amazing things about medieval war arrows is how much time was put into something that would, in many cases, be shot only one time.  Of course, practice arrows would be used until they were lost or broken, but think of the thousands of sky-blackening arrows that were loosed once and never recovered.  After the time I spent building five of these arrows—the thought sickens me.  Well, I guess war has never been cheap.

Fletching: 

If you saw the picture at the end of yesterdays post and wondered what the two bundles of arrows were—I’ll tell you.  That’s an artist’s rendering of what the recovered arrows looked like, and what they may have looked like originally.  On the 3,500+ arrows that were recovered, only fragments of the quills from the feathers remained with bits of thread fibers. 

What we have learned from these is that the feathers (goose or swan) were all about 7 1/2” long, and they were wrapped with red silk thread.  A question that should come up immediately is—why were the feathers that long?  Pip suggests that the feathers were cut to a very low ‘hogsback’ profile for flight distance.  Others think the fletchings were triangular.  Most war bow shooters use a shorter, triangular fletching.  I’ve done the fletchings both ways and greatly prefer the ease of doing the shorter feathers that fit in my fletching jig.  I made a jig that will do feathers up to 8” but it’s not as nice to use as a Jo-Jan.

In the case of the fletchings, I didn’t strive for perfect recreation but rather for utility.  I used super glue to get the feathers on, and then wrapped them with nylon upholstery thread—which I couldn’t find in red.  I used turkey feathers because that’s what I had on hand and I love the look and quality. 



Nocks:

The Nocks of the arrows were reinforced with a 2” wedge of horn.  They were about 1/8” wide and 5/16” deep.  Some sort of reinforcement is necessary and my first war bow shots with a dense, hardwood shaft (Ipe) split the nock.



Finished arrows--ready for bodkins!



Bodkins Thursday!

[ragi]

Hey JD cpl tips about your arras.

If you wrap farther up the shaft towards the nock you avoid a lot of splitting. I have made Hexshaft self nocks which is gonna be inherently weaker than ash and then wrapped right under the nock yet they have no problems and when you hit the nock with another arrow the wood splits only until the wrapping. Ergo wrapped nocks are good, even with the horn reinforcing slit, wrapping is good.

I notice that you did not extend the feather quills out past the end of the feather and wrapped over. This weakens the wrap job a lot. I leave 1/4 inch front and back so that I can wrap over the quill. And if you cut the projecting quill to 45 degrees along the long axis, it wraps much nicer.