Ipe belly slat: Grain orientation??

[Red Dwarf]

 

I have just taken delivery of a couple of boards of Ipe that Grantmac was kind enough to pick out for me as I could not find any locally.
I am planning on attempting a bamboo or hickory backed flatbow 62" ntn and 50# at 28".

I will need quite a bit of help on the way and have a few questions to start off with:

I have the choice of cutting the Ipe to give either an edge ringed or flat ringed belly slat. Is there a preference?
I have read that Ipe is very strong and was thinking along the lines of a 3/8" belly slat with maybe a 1/8"-3/16" hickory backing.
If I make the limbs 1 1/8" at the fades tapering to 1/2" at the tips will I be in the ballpark as far as weight is concerned?
I plan on gluing in about 1 1/2" of Perry reflex (2 1/2" on the form)

All advice welcome.

Red Dwarf


 

[radius]

how big are your boards?  1" thick?  I've been to the very store where Grant bought the IPE, and i think all they had was 4/4 stock...that means you are stuck sawing it as you got it.  With 6/4 or 8/4 stock you can cut slats off the edge to get vertical grain pieces (from a plain sawn board) but with 4/4 stock you're stuck with what you've got.  My advice:  saw up a few different thicknesses and experiment.  If you have a jointer, then you can taper the belly pieces (see Wytetale's buildalong on r/d bows) and this will help you tiller...

[Rich Saffold]

Don't glue in more than 1.5" there really isn't any speed benefit to adding more..Besides the glue-up might reflex a bit more when removing belly wood..

I prefer flat ringed although I have had good luck using Ipe in all angles.. What ever has the straightest grain is also my favorite..

Your numbers look fine..

Rich

[snedeker]

Doesn't make much difference re: edge grained for flat sawn..   I;d go a bit thicker on the slats  - 1/2 maybe because of the problem of handle popoff.   Go low 60s inches length.

Dave

[Red Dwarf]

The board that I am starting with is just 1 1/8" thick, and is edge-ringed. If I rip a slat from the edge it will give me an flat-ringed slat.

Rich
I was thinking that 2 1/2" on the form would give me about 1 1/2" when it comes out. Should I be going with 1 1/2" on the form?

I have never worked with Ipe before and need to straighten up an edge before going to the table saw. Do any of you guys use hand planes on this stuff; I do not have a jointer?

 
Red Dwarf

[radius]

hand plane works too!  just slower....you could also use a belt sander if you have one..

[Rich Saffold]

Red Dwarf, I do recommend floor tillering the belly first. This allows it to easily go into the form..If you have to force it in, then it can straighten out any amount of reflex you glue in. By floor tillering the belly its going to take the graceful arc you want and since its going into the form easy will hold the shape when removed, plus there will be less wood to deal with later..

Any Ipe bow holding 1.5" is going to be like most bows holding at well over 2"..and one thing Badger and I have learned over the years most of our fastest bows using these kinds of woods rarely hold an inch of reflex, but they have taken virtually no set..They stayed the same right out of the form.. and change very little after shooting.

Heavier bows I use less reflex

More reflex often makes the tiller real challenging..The only exception is when I'm making a long light bow like 72"+ and barely 40#'s for a competition type archer..

I think if your bow holds just under an inch after shooting that would be real good.

As far as tools, I often cut the belly wood on a large table saw, and finish the cut with a bandsaw by the grip, cut the limb outline  with the bandsaw, and clean up the limbs using a table sander..I have tried using the jointer, but I get to floor tillering quicker this way, and that thing is loud...

Ipe is very hard on tools, and I mainly use scrapers after the limbs are just starting to flex for tillering. A very sharp hand plane set with a low cut should work on most Ipe, some has a funny type of grain even though its still good wood and will be a challenge.  But with 100 species of Ipe there will be some variety, and this keeps it interesting...

Go slow, and let the wood determine which tools work best..remember you can't drive a nail into this stuff..well you can try

Rich

[Red Dwarf]

I think I read that Ipe dust is pretty toxic..? I seemed to get some dust even with a sharp hand plane this evening, sanding must be pretty bad.

A scraper must make for very slow going from floor tiller onwards.

Do you cut both your backing and belly slat to profile before glue-up?

Looks like I have got a real challenge coming!

Thanks for the help so far.

Red Dwarf

[grantmac]

Wow that shipping was quick

The only thing I'm going to add is that it doesn't take much reflex with this stuff. Also you can get the tips very, very skinny and the bow will only improve. I would try to finish with them under 5/16ths. This makes traditional nocks hard to use so I glue on an overlay and just use a back-nock.

Have fun with that stuff, I've been flattening Boo for use with the board I kept. I think it's going to end-up in a slightly R/D ELB about 7/8" wide.
       Cheers,
              Grant

[Justin Snyder]

Yes the dust is toxic.  Some people have quite a reaction to it very quickly.  You should wear a dust mask at minimum. A scraper will work better than you think.  I think the harder the wood the better the scraper works.  Yes, it will be slow. The name of this game is PATIENCE.  That is the therapy part of it.  I always cut my backing just barely larger than the belly before I do the final prep on it.  This allows me to get a better idea on thickness of boo and you don't need to prep extra material. Justin

[Red Dwarf]

Thanks again Grant for taking the time to pick out a couple of boards for me; reallt appreciated.

Justin

Does this mean that both the belly slat and the backing a pretty much to profile before glue-up?

Red Dwarf

[Justin Snyder]

Yes, and the belly is pre tillered before glue up.  In fact you can pre tiller the backing a little.  You will need to get the belly below weight before pulling to full draw. Most belly slats wont take being drawn to 60# without backing, but if you tiller it to 40# then add the back you will be over your target of 60#.  Justin

[Rich Saffold]

Red Dwarf, Usually if I'm scraping off a little belly wood, I'm usually standing, and pushing the scraper down the belly with the tip near my feet.. I'm putting a little weight behind it  

This speeds things up.. I also have between 5-10 scrapers sharpened by using the grinder before commencing on any serious Ipe scraping.. Big ones I can push as well as normal sized ones for detail work..

Like Justin mentioned, the toxicity of this wood has to be taken seriously. If you can work it outside with your body upwind, I'd do that as well as use a mask, the kind with a couple charcoal filters is advised as well..

Rich

[Red Dwarf]

Rich

Can you throw a little more light on "scrapers sharpened on the grinder"?..Sounds interesting!
How does a Nicolson type rasp do on Ipe?
Should I be able to tiller the belly slat close to full draw or is that asking too much?
Do any of you guys wear gloves when working this wood?

Sorry for all of the questions; trying to get as much info as possible before I start.

Red Dwarf

[Rich Saffold]

I have been running my scrapers through a medium wheel on the grinder with the rest set at level for the past ten years..You use the opposite edge of the hook which builds up on the bottom when grinding..It's this clean 90deg. edge which removes wood very smoothly..

I showed the LA crew this trick about 5 years ago and its the "norm" now..you can do 10 scrapers in one tenth the time you can do one the old fashioned way..and we abuse these things much more so this really helps..

I have an article written for those not on line, but have been too busy to send it...

Tillering the belly slat between brace height and full draw usually works.. the heavy bows I tiller less the light target bows I get closer to full draw and put a little more reflex in like I mentioned.. You want it to go into what ever form you use and easily take the shape you want.This is what matters most..
Rich