Author Topic: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge  (Read 94704 times)

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Offline Skeaterbait

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #75 on: July 30, 2008, 10:29:58 pm »
You kind of have to wonder, since there is no recorded methodology, do you suppose the craftsman mearly started with a chunk of wood and whittled until it bent right. After all, the bows were quite often discarded on the battlefield once the arrow supply was spent.

radius

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #76 on: July 30, 2008, 10:31:18 pm »
why do you think the bows were discarded?  That seems unlikely...?

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #77 on: July 30, 2008, 10:35:47 pm »
More likely they threw them down to draw thier other weapons and retrieved the bow after if it was still in one piece. More like divest until you can go get it.
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Offline Skeaterbait

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #78 on: July 30, 2008, 11:40:53 pm »
Perhaps discarded was a bad choice in words, but yes the archer also carried swords so that once the arrows were used up they would join in the more personal of warfare. With that in mind if you consider that battles consisted of 1000's of soldiers on each side, what are the odds that the bow would get retrieved. I am sure some of them were picked up and reimplemented but how many?

radius

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2008, 12:06:52 am »
depends how many archers survived the swordplay!

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #80 on: July 31, 2008, 01:04:04 am »
why do you think the bows were discarded?  That seems unlikely...?
Because a 6' long stick would slow me down when running from a horse.  ;)
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


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radius

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #81 on: July 31, 2008, 01:08:13 am »
right you are, JS, right you are!

Offline Badger

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #82 on: July 31, 2008, 04:45:23 am »
      I think a cool experiment would be to make about 12 different bows all from different woods, make the demensions and the tapers all identical. Ignore the draw weight and just let it come out as it may. Say 74" long for a 30" draw and 1 1/4 wide at the handle to 1/2" tips. I would almost bet the draw weights would range from about 50# to 130#.

ThimoS

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #83 on: July 31, 2008, 07:15:14 am »
Steve that sounds perfect.

Offline Kegan

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #84 on: July 31, 2008, 11:14:09 am »
I love how much I'm learning from this challenge :).

Okay, I've got a sassafras bow in the works. I'm hoping it'll be thick enough for an ELB style bow, but I haven't started playing with the thickness yet. My question is, can this bow tolerate a width of 1 3/8" fom midl limb to midlimb (semi-Saxton Pope dimensions) and still reach 85# at 28"? It's 6' long, will be about 1 1/4" thick at the grip, and heat tempered (and backed cause sassafras still scares me a bit :D). What do you guys think?

Offline Badger

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #85 on: July 31, 2008, 11:31:22 am »
Kegan, get the bow just bending a small amount and then see how much it weighs. If you get it bending through the handle elb style it should take a lot of weight but I am not familar with sasafrass.

Offline Kegan

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #86 on: July 31, 2008, 11:46:16 am »
Thanks! At the moment, it's still pretty much a piece of tree, so I'm thinking I'll be able to get the weight I want. Trouble is going slowly during the roughing out :-X ;)!

DCM

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #87 on: July 31, 2008, 11:50:33 am »
Having survived the whitewood wars, and being new and naive during that period, I have perhaps a different perspective than many folks seem to have.  I didn't have enough experience at the time to have any real bias, if anything in favor of the WW side, and I think folks would judge me to be generally openminded.  Please don't be offended any of you by my comments.  I only hope my reputation will make you think about what I write, as I intend it sincerely for good, versus contraversy for sport.

My perspective is the whitewood proponents (predominantly one person with lots of followers) a) had an predisposition to  be "right" regardless of the discussion, b) had a huge chip on their shoulder c) wanted to make a name for himself.  As a consequence the method of argumentation used was largely logical fallacy, versus presenting "clean" science.  Specifically, the idea that osage proponents discounted completely the use of whitewood was a straw man.  Rather, proponents of osage judged it to be only "better."  The rest was hyperbole by the WW side to counter, to discount, this inescapable reality.  Now don't get me wrong, by better I don't mean on the one hand a score of 100 and the other a score of 1.  More like 100 versus 99.9.  And obviously context is very, very important, perhaps the only important aspect.  But the fact remains, for most of us who hunt and live in a humid climate, who will make 10s or 100s of bow over a course of years for that purpose, those ho generally have easy access to it, bascially if you live on the East side of the Rocky mountains, osage is a better choice.  Yes, WW works great in low humidty but so does osage.  Yes, osage is more fragile in extremely low humidity, but only a few of us have that concern.  Yes, there are cases where WW, even red oak boards from your local home center really are the best choice, but not the majority of cases.  That I think was the argument promoted by the osage side.  One not entertained seriously, honestly, by the WW side IMHO, for reasons which I think tend to not work in our favor over the long haul.

So, when one is tempted to think or promote the idea the osage side of the WW war had some insideous agenda to keep you from making bows of elm, please reconsider.  In fact, folks on the osage side might well have made more elm bows than you have, and understood all to well it's strenghts, and weaknesses.

Sorry for the hijack.  I reckon I got my stinger out a little.  And for what it's worth, assuming one can control moisture content reasonable easily which is a given for most home crafters today, I'd much prefer good elm over osage to build an elb style bow of 80# or less.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 06:41:10 pm by DCM »

Offline Badger

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #88 on: July 31, 2008, 12:51:23 pm »
David, very good well thought out post. I find the same as you regarding osage elbs below about 75#. In my view osage or other dense woods will not really make a proper 50# elb any longer than about 64" at the most. At 75# a 64" osage elb can be a dream bow.  You can play with the tiller and make them stiffer through the center but are they still truly an elb at that point? I use a lot of osage and I also use a lot of white woods. Osage in my view has to be at the top of the list when you list all the possible attributes in order of importance. Whre I live along the coast I consider hickory just one step above junkwood, if I lived 20 miles further inland I would probably make hickory one of my main bow woods. Design is everything when it comes to bows and we can't ignore the wood we are working with when designing a bow. I think if we have a particular design we would like to build we have the tools and knowledge now to select woods that will best suit that design. If we allready have the wood I think it a good idea to design bows around the wood. Steve

Offline Skeaterbait

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2008, 01:01:57 pm »
Having survived the whitewood wars, and being new and naive during that period, I have perhaps a different perspective than many folks seem to have.  I didn't have enough experience at the time to have any real bias, if anything in favor of the WW side, and I think folks would judge me to be generally openminded.  Please don't be offended any of you by my comments.  I only hope my reputation will make you think about what I write, as I intend it sincerely for good, versus contraversy for sport.

My perspective is the whitewood proponents (predominantly one person with lots of followers) had an predisposition to a) be "right" regardless of the discussion, b) had a huge chip on their soldier c) wanted to make a name for himself.  As a consequence the method of argumentation used was largely logical fallacy, versus presenting "clean" science.  Specifically, the idea that osage proponents discounted completely the use of whitewood was a straw man.  Rather, proponents of osage judged it to be only "better."  The rest was hyperbole by the WW side to counter, to discount, this inescapable reality.  Now don't get me wrong, by better I don't mean on the one hand a score of 100 and the other a score of 1.  More like 100 versus 99.9.  And obviously context is very, very important, perhaps the only important aspect.  But the fact remains, for most of us who hunt and live in a humid climate, who will make 10s or 100s of bow over a course of years for that purpose, those ho generally have easy access to it, bascially if you live on the East side of the Rocky mountains, osage is a better choice.  Yes, WW works great in low humidty but so does osage.  Yes, osage is more fragile in extremely low humidity, but only a few of us have that concern.  Yes, there are cases where WW, even red oak boards from your local home center really are the best choice, but not the majority of cases.  That I think was the argument promoted by the osage side.  One not entertained seriously, honestly, by the WW side IMHO, for reasons which I think tend to not work in our favor over the long haul.

So, when one is tempted to think or promote the idea the osage side of the WW war had some insideous agenda to keep you from making bows of elm, please reconsider.  In fact, folks on the osage side might well have made more elm bows than you have, and understood all to well it's strenghts, and weaknesses.

Sorry for the hijack.  I reckon I got my stinger out a little.  And for what it's worth, assuming one can control moisture content reasonable easily which is a given for most home crafters today, I'd much prefer good elm over osage to build an elb style bow of 80# or less.


 ??? ??? ??? "There's a lot of big words in there miss, we're not but humble pirates"  ::)