Author Topic: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge  (Read 96845 times)

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Minuteman

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Re: White Wood English Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2008, 09:02:44 am »
Marc has a good point. A flat bellied bow as far as I know was NOT an english style LB. So I'll change the name of the thread. Flat bellies are still ok. I'm thinking about a squashed elipse myself.

Offline Hickoryswitch

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2008, 09:17:49 am »
Well mine  is pretty much tillered and done.  Mine has a round belly and has took some set but not too bad I don't guess. It has taken bout 2''s worth. It's 50 lbs. at 28''.
Wayne Silverthorn

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: White Wood English Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2008, 09:55:53 am »
Marc has a good point. A flat bellied bow as far as I know was NOT an english style LB. So I'll change the name of the thread. Flat bellies are still ok. I'm thinking about a squashed elipse myself.

I'm thinking you should leave it as is Chris.  That will make the challenge much more interesting
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

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DCM

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2008, 10:36:58 am »
Rich,

You did shoot that bow, probably the first year it was made, perhaps the second.  I narrowed the outer limb when I retillered it, and improved it's manners considerably.  I don't recall what it was when I made it, or whether I even had a target in mind, but I weighted it some time later, probably during a dry spell, and was surprised at the draw weight.  Got me curious what's up with in now, but no point even thinking about working with it in this climate.  I'm having trouble keeping RH below 55%, at best!

I'm not sure one can pinpoint a precise, specific "ELB" design.  We have the Marry Rose artifacts and then on the other end of the spectrum the "yard bows" from the late 19th century which survive as model, but they differ significantly.

I say if it follows the 5 part thickness to 8 parts width rule, you are good regardless of how much crown the belly has.  I'm not convinced English bowyer's where so homogeneous, or that an arched belly has any particular benefit to warrant it's universal use.  But it's ya'lls contest, and I most likely won't enter anyway.  I know Marc is a great bowyer, and in particular at the top of the game in this design, but I'm not sure the premise holds that an arched belly has to follow the string excessively.  I think you can add lenght to compensate.  May not optimize cast, but would still be effective.

Offline Badger

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2008, 11:17:08 am »
   The same woods that give me trouble with flatbows give me trouble chrysaling in elbs. Cherry, locust, ash. I don't believe a well made elb has to be under any more stress than a flatbow. Lots more bending limb to work with. Steve

Offline D. Tiller

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2008, 12:18:32 pm »
Try a shallow radius on the belly for an ELB out of white wood.  The High radius of Victorian erra bows stresses the limbs more. I also heard from one of the guys who studied the Marry Rose bows that the bow bellies verried from almost square to and almost V like Belly. So it could very from one maker to the next and was not standard across the board.  Most likely our perception of what an ELB was is formed from target bows of the Victorian erra and needs to be re-thought. Also, might want to try the mass principle on this and increase the length of the bows to compensate for weaker white woods than yew since we can't increase the limb width.

David T
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Minuteman

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2008, 01:30:19 pm »
Heres a link to a site that has info on an ELB that may have had a rectangular cross section( paragraph 29"the Mendlesham bow")
 
 http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/longbow/longbow.html

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: White Wood English Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2008, 06:13:59 pm »
i think where people might be getting confused is in the expression of the ratio

5:8 (which we know is the way a ratio is expressed)

as opposed to

5/8 (which is most easily seen as a fraction of an inch)



So...Which one is correct? Because there is a difference. And does anyone know where this rule came from? I may have confused some people. The way I read the original mention of this rule was that the thickness of the bow was 5/8 of the width. As a ratio this would be 1 : 5/8. If the other way is correct then there should be 5 thicknesses to every 8 widths. If you divide each side by 8, (remember algebra?) then 8/8=5/8. You can then simplify 8/8 to 1 and then you are right back to where we started.....
Sorry if I made you even more confused!! ???   
You only confused yourself. They are essentially the same thing.  One is a ratio, the other is a ratio that you decided to compare to an inch. We are using 5/8 as a ratio of whatever width you choose to start with, that is why it doesn't have a " after it to designate inch.  You might have a little problem if you decide to make a bow 1" wide all the way to the tips.  ;)


I like Marc's idea to leave it ELB.  It sounds like a challenge. That means I'm in.  8) I think Ill go more 7/8 though. Justin
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Offline Kegan

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2008, 07:10:44 pm »
In TBB vol. 3, Tim Baker talks about how we may have had the wrong idea about the original ELB's- they would simply cut out the bow, round the edges, and poof, a slightly rounded (due to their large size) Longbow.

Also, it would have been a thing of ecenomics (sp?). take a tree, split it a bunco of times, and you have several pie-shaped staves, none of which could really provide a truly falt belly without coming in way under weight for their needs.

Saxton Pope also wrote that many people argued, even then, about the belly- whether it should be slightly radiused or deeply stacked. He said that the former was more durable, but soft in cast (I;m assuming this is more because of the lack of mass than anything else), where as the latter was much prefered for targt bows- not really hunting bows.

Either way, I'm in. I think that heat tempered hickory or hornbeam could hold up to either, I'll just have to see what sort of stave I've got to work with. I know that the elm I have around here needs to be slightly lighter to take the deeply round belly though.

ThimoS

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2008, 07:15:08 pm »
Count me in.

I'm working on a muscle-wood elb at the moment. Also have a black-gum in the works, and always elm.

Offline Kegan

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2008, 07:24:17 pm »
Count me in.

I'm working on a muscle-wood elb at the moment. Also have a black-gum in the works, and always elm.

Are they going to be some of your heavier ones? If so, what are the rough dimensions?

I'm not cheating, I'm learning ;D.

Minuteman

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2008, 07:35:46 pm »
AAAAALrighty then I'll switch it back.Sure wish you fellers would make up your minds ;)

orcbow

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2008, 07:37:33 pm »
I may be confused, but not about math! I know the difference between a fraction and a ratio. I was trying to point out how a guy could apply that ratio to any width that they had. And I am guilty of a making a bad math joke...... >:D
I deleted it.

Offline Kegan

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Re: White Wood Skinny Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2008, 07:51:53 pm »
AAAAALrighty then I'll switch it back.Sure wish you fellers would make up your minds ;)

We're wooden bow makers. If we could make up our minds, we would all be shooting just one bow, of othe proper design ;).

ThimoS

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Re: White Wood ENGLISH Long Bow Challenge
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2008, 07:59:47 pm »
Let me look up the facts on the "proper" elb requirements and I'll post them. I've got every book on the subject. OCD you know. LOL

Anyway here are two white wood elbs made last month, I think??? The 1st is crepe-myrtle and it's only 55# at 28".










The second is an elm heavy elb I'm sending to Manny. It is 90# at 28" his draw-length.












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