Author Topic: fastest selfbow?  (Read 58384 times)

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Offline Pappy

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2008, 01:13:16 pm »
We all done that,at least most,but as time goes on and your confidants grows you start to
push the limits some,mine still aren't what you would call fast but a lot better than the first ones.
Like justin said it is just a way to push yourself to get better and learn more, that is what most want to do.Threads like this helps that.Thats why I love this site you learn just by listening. :) and then take what you like and leave what you don't and move forward. :)
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Offline DanaM

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2008, 01:26:41 pm »
Yup Pappy we all learn from each other :)
"Prosperity is a way of living and thinking, and not just money or things. Poverty is a way of living and thinking, and not just a lack of money or things."

Manistique, MI

Offline Badger

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2008, 02:15:56 pm »
        I wish I had the tillering eyes that a lot of you guys have here. I think I could pick up a few fps more LOL. I don't see chaseing speed as any different than any other aspect of any hobby, we all just take different directions. One thing that in retrospect I find interesting is that as incremental plateaus of performance arre reached it is comparable to opening doors and walking through them. Makes you feel like you have gone deeper into this world of bending wood. Almost like focusing a microscope but instead of using vision your microscope becomes your understanding of things that formerly had no meaning. An individual with good tillering skills can easily replicate a high performance bow and make it very very fast, having a lot of knowledge isn't really neccessary once the recipe has been figured out. I have seen several examples of bowyers with extraordinary bowyering skills with relatively little knowledge of the dynamics, the result was still an extraordinary bow by following simple design principles. As we get closer to the 200 fps with 10 grains barrier all the facets that make for efficient fast bows have to come together in unison. Low hysterisis, high energy storage, low vibration. We used to say a fast bow is 90% broke. I would change that today and say that a fast bow has not even entered the point where the wood has started to take any set or deform at all yet, well inside it's limits of not breaking. Someone named Hickman year ago made the statement that if a bow limb were rigid and had a hinge right at the handle it would be 100% efficient regardless of limb mass, he was right! If a bow limb did not distort it would return all the energy to the arrow before the string slammed tight. The distorsion is usually midlimb and starts several inches before the string slams home in the form of a forward bulge. Stiffening the limb through designs, removing some of the limbs mid outer limb mass also lowers the momentum it has that exagerates this bulge. Lighter weight outer limbs not only accelerate faster but also allow the arrow to more effectively slow them down as the leverage changes at the end of the stroke making the arrow effectively much heavier. Very fast bows don't slam home as hard as slower bows, the arrow is able to soften the landing and sap out the energy the limbs have stored more effectively. You really don't have to make bows skimpy and fragile to be fast. Steve

Offline bigcountry

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2008, 02:16:23 pm »
We all done that,at least most,but as time goes on and your confidants grows you start to
push the limits some,mine still aren't what you would call fast but a lot better than the first ones.
Like justin said it is just a way to push yourself to get better and learn more, that is what most want to do.Threads like this helps that.Thats why I love this site you learn just by listening. :) and then take what you like and leave what you don't and move forward. :)
   Pappy

What are the tricks for speed?  I figured it would be limbs as narrow as possible.   Heat treatin the belly.  Recurving the tips.  Generally overall design and shape.  
Westminster, MD

Offline DanaM

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2008, 02:38:23 pm »
bigcountry a good place to start is with Badgers mass theory formula, Steve perhaps you can post the Excel spreadsheet again.

I agree we all build bows for our own reasons but I can be happy with a decent hunting bow that shoots fair as I advance in my skills I may very well
start experimenting with different designs and tillers to increase performance but its not necessary in order to enjoy this wonderful addiction we all have.
"Prosperity is a way of living and thinking, and not just money or things. Poverty is a way of living and thinking, and not just a lack of money or things."

Manistique, MI

DCM

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2008, 02:45:10 pm »
Lennie I concede your point.  It's a spectrum, not a hard line in the sand.  

Not sure you have followed a couple of the things learned, or relearned in the flight shooter discussions lately, in the last year or so.  I'll try to give the Reader's digest version.  First, I did not really appretiate that a good portion, perhaps most of, the KE in the bow is transferred to the arrow in the last few inches of power stroke.  Second, bow limbs do not retain the same shape on the power stroke as they do on the draw stroke.  This difference accounts for a good measure of the lost (to the arrow) energy in the system.  Steve is talking about these things in his last post.  Using enough wood, when done with considered design, actually works in one's favor in terms of making maximum cast.  Flight bows don't necessarily have to be right on the edge of broken, so close to the elastic limits, if you can apply the first two principles with good design.  It's still all about a) store lots of energy and b) get as much back out as possible, in various combinations.

Offline Justin Snyder

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2008, 02:45:17 pm »
We all done that,at least most,but as time goes on and your confidants grows you start to
push the limits some,mine still aren't what you would call fast but a lot better than the first ones.
Like justin said it is just a way to push yourself to get better and learn more, that is what most want to do.Threads like this helps that.Thats why I love this site you learn just by listening. :) and then take what you like and leave what you don't and move forward. :)
   Pappy

What are the tricks for speed?  I figured it would be limbs as narrow as possible.   Heat treatin the belly.  Recurving the tips.  Generally overall design and shape.  
I don't think there are any "tricks." Those things do help, depending on the design.  Like Steve said, a well tillered bow is usually quite efficient.  If you want to increase performance I suggest you at least try Steve's mass formula. It will help you to not build it to wide or too narrow. I for one break as many bows as I finish. Why?  Because I like to push the wood and my skills.  I figure a bow that is on the verge of breaking will show me my weakness, not the woods. It will not forgive tiller that is slightly out or a flaw in design or workmanship.  And the best part....... I can build another which is what I really want to do anyway.  ;D Justin
I see Dana suggested Badgers formula while I was typing.  ;)
Everything happens for a reason, sometimes the reason is you made a bad decision.


SW Utah

Offline Badger

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2008, 03:09:37 pm »
      Big country, one of the beauties of this bow making thing is that several different designs can yield very similar results, for non reflex desings, elbs, holmgardes, piramids, and a million variations of these can produce very similar results. Number one most important thing for performance is dry wood!! You simply don't stand a chance with out it. I don't worry about it much on my everyday bows and just settle for whatever they come out as my moisture is just a little on the high side and still acceptable to me. I tend to favor the woods with higher oil content that seem less sensitive to moisture issues.
    I think the other important thing is moderation in design, nothing too fancy, the more curves you put in a bow the wider you need to make the limb and the wider you make the limb the more it will vibrate and flop around. I had a guy build me a modern longbow this year for the flight shoots, he incorparated a lot of the simple tecniques we use on wood bows and the bow looks like it set a new speed record for modern bows hitting 202 fps with a 10 grain arrow at 28". he used a moderate r/d design with less than 2" net reflex.
     I think another thing that is important, instead of glueing in 4" reflex to finish with 1", try glueing in 2" reflex and finishing with 1 1/2. The wood is a lot stiffer when it hasn't been damged so much, has less hystresis, higher early draw weight and stacks less. If you are tillering a bow out and it starts to show sings of loosing it's reflex at say 24" it will likley be a fast bow at 24" but not get much faster as the draw length increases unless you can get more wood involved in the bending process and stop the set from increasing. I try to start my bend in the mid inner limb area and as needed I work toward the handle and out toward the tip. I use a method of monitoring the wood that doesn't involve measuring the set. I use a bench mark of say 20" or whatever and check the draw weight there, as I draw the bow out further I keep going back to my bench marl to check and see if it has lost any weight. Every time I remove wood I have to establish a new benchmark. This is realy effective as the wood will actually start to drop in weight before you can visually see the set happening.
       I am not really sure about the next statement I am going to make but I suspect that when there is a radical transition in the shape of the bow both in width and thickness it seem to interupt the harmonics somehow and lesson the distorsion or vibration on the return stroke. A holmegarde would be an example of this, I use a modified version of this on my outer limbs in the r/d designs. Steve

grantmac

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2008, 04:37:38 pm »
Steve,

I have never seen a picture of any of your bows. Do you mind posting-up a front profile shot so I can see what your talking about? I'm about to embark on a BBI and I'd like to give it a try.
       Cheers,
             Grant

Offline jwillis

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2008, 06:22:06 pm »
I've been making modern glass bows since the early 90's.  It wasn't until I recently started making wood bows, including self bows and backed wooden bows, that I started learning how to make an efficient bow.  Most of what I learn about good bow design comes from here and yuku.  Don't be afraid to pat yourself on the back.  I think most paleo bowyers are more concerned with efficiency than some of them are willing to admit.  I'll be the first to say that most glass bowyers don't know how to make an efficient bow, whereas most experienced wood bowyers do.  Overbuilding your bow so it won't fail is a choice just like underbuilding one to limits of elasticity and mass.  I have always been a student of efficiency.  Form follows function.  Most of what I've learned about efficiency came from Badger and Tim Baker... I'm currently building their theories and having great improvements in performance and handling.  In my opinion, their modified holmies are the most efficient designs.  Look at any of the best bows and they have similar characteristics.  Lately, I've been watching bows as they are shot to see the power stroke.  The most efficient bows have very little limb movement during the draw and are equally stressed at every point along the limb.  You can barely see any single point moving more than another... and when the limbs return to brace, there is no visible deformation or vibration, they simply return home and stay put.  Watching someone else shoot my bows makes it easier to see.

I've found this essay by Dennis LaVarenne to be very useful, especially the limb profile on page three...
www.fiarc.org/public/Forum/Data/jeval/2005102714414_Tillering%20the%20Holmegaard%20Bow-2.pdf
« Last Edit: July 25, 2008, 06:47:47 pm by jwillis »

Offline PatM

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2008, 09:04:56 pm »
You can see one Steve's classic bows on the bowyer's journal site. His laminated entry for the ambush bow contest is a perfect example of his theories. The bow is also incredibly short and narrow for the lengthy draw it withstands. I want it :)

grantmac

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2008, 03:59:26 am »
You can see one Steve's classic bows on the bowyer's journal site. His laminated entry for the ambush bow contest is a perfect example of his theories. The bow is also incredibly short and narrow for the lengthy draw it withstands. I want it :)

Ahh I see that bow now. I sure wish they had a unbraced shot.  It almost looks like it doesn't have a very typical Holmie front-section but it does have a typical holmie tiller. How wide were the bending limbs on that one and how did it go through the chrono?
It's amazing what that Ipe will stand, it's damn near one of those Hickman bows.
      Cheers,
            Grant

Offline PatM

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2008, 08:47:39 am »
 Well according to Steve the bow had minimal reflex at glue-up and settled at straight after shooting. He does also mention his working limb was a tad wider than normal at  one inch (!!!). It makes you think you could tip-toe up the inner limb width and max out that hinge theory even more.

grantmac

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2008, 02:09:38 pm »
Thats pretty much what I'm thinking about. Trap the boo on the working parts to keep it from overpowering the Ipe and then trap the Ipe on the outers to keep weight down while still having enough width for stability. I'm thinking along the lines of an extremely stretched and exagerated Holmegaard. Probably glue it up straight just to keep from having stability problems.
Ahh efficiency is probably one of my favorite things to think about in all my past-times, why should bows be any different.
     Cheers,
            Grant

Offline Marc St Louis

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Re: fastest selfbow?
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2008, 04:50:54 pm »
When quoting speeds you should also quantify the numbers.  I have been able to get more than 240 fps with a wood and sinew recurve but that was using 300 grain arrows in a 70# bow.  I have made many bows that shot 180+ using 10GPP arrows and only a couple that have gone over 190 fps with 10 GPP arrows.  For the last few years I haven't bothered chronographing my bows. I know they are fast.  They are also smooth and excellent shooters, at least that is what I am told  :).
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