Lemonwood /Degame

[jameswoodmot]

Hiya. Couldn’t find anywhere for introductions here so I bought I would jump straight in. After the “big scare” I realised how much I valued this forum as a resource, I’m very happy to see it back up and running, thank you to everyone who worked on it.

I am in the U.K. and the majority of information on bow making online is from he US, there is some overlap in woods but it’s getting harder and harder to source foreign timber here.

One wood I can get is lemonwood but I’m finding it hard to learn about. It’s too expensive for me to just experiment with. However, I’ve since learned because of its provenance it can be hard to get in the US.
It is often used as a belly wood on laminate English longbows, I would like to make a bamboo backed reflex/ deflex bow.
My first bow as a child was a Slazenger bow from lemonwood, I would also like  to make my partner a light poundage bow of similar design but I have a few question;

For the laminate, would lemonwood be comparable to Ipe, can I use similar dimensions and proportions or would it be best to treat it like a white wood? Is the growth ring orientation important?

For the light poundage self bow (30lb max) I would like to recurve it, google says lemonwood is very good for steam bending, tbbII says it’s terrible and needs chemical treatment to bend it, any ideas?
As with the laminate, how important is growth ring orientation?

I’m usually very happy to just try and see with white woods but as I said it can be so hard to get premium bow wood I would like the best chance of success I can get!


Here are some of my other bows (I’m just finishing number 5 and 6)

Thank you!

[superdav95]

Love the look of these bows very nice indeed.  Welcome to pa!  I’ve not worked lemonwood but have heard from others it make very good bows.  I bet it would be a great candidate for boo backed for sure.  Just make the backing very thin and find a good consistent slat of boo strip.  The hardness of the backing strip can easily overpower the belly wood.  Lots of guys on here build boo laminate bows.  It appears that lemonwood has hardness similar to hickory so I would say from my experience with bow backed hickory you’d be fine.   Not sure about heat treatment on your lemonwood so tread carefully on that.  Best of luck with your build

[Pat B]

Welcome to PA. 
I've  made a couple of lemonwood bows. Both were American longbow style and backed with hickory. Both bows turned out quite well. One thing about lemon wood is it is susceptible to fretting so be sore your tillering is spot on. From the looks of your bows I don't think you will have a problem.

[Del the cat]

I've used it, it is almost homogenous with very little obvious grain, works well, fine for an ELB with boo, Hickory, Ash etc as a backing. Not as hard  or splintery a Ipe.
Del

[bjrogg]

Welcome to PA

I don’t have any answers to your question but I like the full draw on the bows you shared. Nice work and thanks for posting

Bjrogg

[Hamish]

Your bows look good. You definitely have enough skill to experiment with lemonwood, and not be worried.


Lemonwood is a good wood, for bows. In fact it was considered one of the 3 top woods for commercial bow making(yew and osage the others).
Ipe, I would rate as superior to lemonwood. It takes less set, needs less wood to make a good bow, ie dimensions of an Ipe bow are much narrower. Ipe is a very heavy /dense wood.

It takes quite a bit of set if used as a board bow. I have not found it to be sensitive to fretting or chrysalling, as it will make a deep sectioned english longbow. Pat may have got a bad board, or the bow length/ width design was not enough for the poundage he was after.

To avoid set, and maximise cast, back the stave with boo or hickory, reflexing a couple of inches during the glue up.

Width for lemonwood flatbow, I usually go for 1.5-1.75" wide at the widest part. Pretty much the same design most people use for an osage flatbow. For a similar bow in Ipe I would use 1.25-1.5" for a flatbow.

This link on Stemmler has some dimensions of lemonwood bows that his factory used to make. https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/stemmler/essentials-of-archery/docs/making-the-flat-limbed-lemonwood-bow.html

As for steam bending lemonwood, I have never tried(due to the same warnings that you mentioned). I have heard some guys have tried it and been successful. Due to the best usage of lemonwood being in backed or laminated bows, most guys that want to recurve, glue it in. Either several thin core and belly laminations, tapered along the length, so the tip section is even thinner. You also have the option of saw kerfing the tip area of a thicker belly lam, so it becomes more flexible. You then glue in thin strips to take up the space that the kerf left, when you glue up the reflex.

Here's another method you could use, it involves gluing underlays, good for static tips. https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/stemmler/essentials-of-archery/docs/large.html

I just checked the second link won't show properly, try this one. If it works you can click on the images for more detail. https://www.archerylibrary.com/books/stemmler/essentials-of-archery/docs/reflexed-bows.html

[jameswoodmot]

Thank you SO much! Thats really helpful

I've used it, it is almost homogenous with very little obvious grain, works well, fine for an ELB with boo, Hickory, Ash etc as a backing. Not as hard  or splintery a Ipe.
Del

I have a lot of Ash, I buy it in sawn boards for my work (not bow related) the recurve above is made from it. Apart from straight clean grain is there anything I should know about backing it with ash? I would guess around 20% of the total limb thickness? Is growth ring orientation important?


Hamish, exactly the the kind of information I was hoping for! Those links are great, I’m looking forward to looking through it all.
My board is 3” wide and 7’ long, that should give me enough for a light bow and a medium bow with those widths you suggested. What sort of proportion of bamboo to belly, keep the back as thin as possible and trap it a bit?


The extra length of the board should give me a bit off wood to try steaming and also to make the laminations for the recurves.



Thank you all for the compliments on my bows! I’ve got six shooting, and a similar number failed/ abandoned.
I have been completely obsessed since the autumn. I’m going to have to give it a rest for a bit or I’ll suddenly lose interest.
I finished up a 45b wych elm bow last night that’s shooting around 152fps 10 grain p/p. I’m really pleased with that, plenty of room for improvement of course but it’s nice to see steady improvements in my tillering and design!

[WhistlingBadger]

Welcome, James!  I also don't know a thing about lemon wood.  Just stopped by to take a look at your past bows.  Beautiful stuff!

[Del the cat]

Thank you SO much! Thats really helpful

I've used it, it is almost homogenous with very little obvious grain, works well, fine for an ELB with boo, Hickory, Ash etc as a backing. Not as hard  or splintery a Ipe.
Del

I have a lot of Ash, I buy it in sawn boards for my work (not bow related) the recurve above is made from it. Apart from straight clean grain is there anything I should know about backing it with ash? I would guess around 20% of the total limb thickness? Is growth ring orientation important?


Hamish, exactly the the kind of information I was hoping for! Those links are great, I’m looking forward to looking through it all.
My board is 3” wide and 7’ long, that should give me enough for a light bow and a medium bow with those widths you suggested. What sort of proportion of bamboo to belly, keep the back as thin as possible and trap it a bit?


The extra length of the board should give me a bit off wood to try steaming and also to make the laminations for the recurves.



Thank you all for the compliments on my bows! I’ve got six shooting, and a similar number failed/ abandoned.
I have been completely obsessed since the autumn. I’m going to have to give it a rest for a bit or I’ll suddenly lose interest.
I finished up a 45b wych elm bow last night that’s shooting around 152fps 10 grain p/p. I’m really pleased with that, plenty of room for improvement of course but it’s nice to see steady improvements in my tillering and design!

I cut my Ash backing as a strip about 3/16" thick so the grain looks like this on the end of the strip |||||||||||||||
Del

[Hamish]

 For bamboo backings, I go as thin as possible, knife edges on the width. I use the Dean Torges method, as shown in his videos, whereby you flatten the boo, then use a template of the bows shape from above, to trace the shape on the boo. Trim the boo down to the tracing and you will notice that the newly exposed edges are now thicker in appearance. You then plane down to the knife edges.

Many other guys just work it down, and laminate onto belly stock. It still seems to work. The argument is a thicker boo backing will cause more set.
I'm not sure as I've always used the Torges method, which looks a more professional in my eyes.

For ash as a backing the ideal method is as Del shows. You can still use flatsawn, or bias sawn backings. You caneven follow a single growth ring, as you would for making a self bow, saw it off and use it as a backing. Its a lot of work compared to using a strip of boo.

[jameswoodmot]

Brilliant, Looks like i will start with the light poundage bow first with Ash backing with vertical growthrings, then the heavier one with the bamboo.

Hamish, thats sounds like a pretty sleek way to thin the tips of the bamboo out, my gut feeling it to start by narrowing it somewhat at the tips but not quite to the finished profile to allow some margin for error.

EA-40 seems to be the glue people use, another one that is not avaible here. I assume any slow cure good quality epoxy will work? G-flex would be my go to.

Thanks again

[Del the cat]

Brilliant, Looks like i will start with the light poundage bow first with Ash backing with vertical growthrings, then the heavier one with the bamboo.

Hamish, thats sounds like a pretty sleek way to thin the tips of the bamboo out, my gut feeling it to start by narrowing it somewhat at the tips but not quite to the finished profile to allow some margin for error.

EA-40 seems to be the glue people use, another one that is not avaible here. I assume any slow cure good quality epoxy will work? G-flex would be my go to.

Thanks again

TitebondIII, or Cascamite* will work fine for bamboo backing, I've used both on bows over 100#.
* Cascamite is a fine white powder which you mix with water. Available in relatively small quanities.
Del

[Hamish]

 You could add 1/4" extra width at the tips, for a safety margin. It becomes more important if you are making narrow longbows or using recurves which can twist a bit.

You trace the same profile that you use for the outline of the boo backing, onto the belly slat. Then you use temporarily use spring clamps to align the shaped backing to the matched tracing on the belly, then reflex and wrap or clamp into shape. Because boo has a cambered surface, most guys reflex with the belly on the bottom and the backing outward. Its hard to explain, but its all set up in Torges videos on hunting the boo backed bow. Other guys probably have a similar set up, if you check out youtube.  You can use the same method for hickory, ash or other flattened wood backings, on a more traditional form  which has a curved profile cut into a plank, and clamp it to the plank, belly on top of backing.

[Hamish]

+1 for tbIII or cascamite. I'd probably go cascamite if you can get it because it will tolerate mild heat corrections better than most other glues.
Counterintuitively G Flex would be too flexible. Instead its better to use a glue with little to no flex(Cascamite is good, as is Ea 40, and some other epoxies that dry as hard, like glass. This is especially important if you need to glue on a riser for depth at the handle, as softer flexible glues will often lift at the dip transitions.