Bow layout questions...

[ssrhythm]

Osage and hickory flatbows...sometimes recurved and sometimes just reflexed longbow...for now, just a 10" stiff, modern handle with pistol grip and cut in arrow shelf...tell me if I'm thinking about this right.

So, I've been laying the handles out 1 inch up from center and 3 inches down from center (bows shorter than 63" get 1.25" up and 2.75" down) making the upper limb longer than bottom by 2".  This has the "holding point" of the bow roughly center of bow making it well balanced, and it puts arrow nock slightly above center of bow.  Split has sting pull about an inch above center of sting and bow...exerting more force on bottom limb, thus bottom limb must be slightly stronger producing about 1/4" positive tiller to even things out.  If 3 under, the pull of string is just barely above center (middle finger) requiring less positiver tiller.  If string were being pulled directly center bow, no positive tiller would be necessary at all...so an even tiller would be dandy with equal limb strength and tiller.  I think I have this correct.

If I laid a bow out with 4" handle and 3" fades and made the handle dead center at 2" above and 2" below center of bow, the limbs would be equal length...which to me seems like it would be much easier to tiller (as far as the mind-*^$% os asymmetrical layout goes).  Doing this would put "hold point" slightly above center making the bow a touch bottom heavy (which would be equaled out by more mass in the palm swell of the grip).  The main issue with this design would be that the arrow pass would be an inch further above center of bow and split fingers would require an even stronger lower limb than the above design as string pull would be well above center of bow, and three under would require about the same 1/4' positive tiller as the above bow if shooting split fingers?

Does this sound right?

Does anyone prefer to build their stiff handle bows this way?  Why?  Why not? 

Thanks.

[Selfbowman]

Both work. For me 67” long 8-9” handle and fade section centered in the bow . Raise your shelf section 1-1/4 inch above center . Fade width depends on wood , 1-1/4 at mid limb 5-16 to 3/8 at tips . 2” reflex in the last 10” . They shoot real good. Just saying.

[Hamish]

For a 3 under draw bow your new proposed method is the easiest, most direct method.
All methods will work for any bow as long as you tiller the bow to mimic your style of draw.

Another option that rarely gets mentioned is different length fades eg instead of 3" fades, you put 2" on the lower limb, and 3" on the top limb. The added benefit is you can get a longer sight window,on a wide limbed bow, without sacrificing the length of the working limb. Working limb length still has an equal layout.

[Selfbowman]

Makes since Hamish! I’ll have to try that one.

[superdav95]

For a 3 under draw bow your new proposed method is the easiest, most direct method.
All methods will work for any bow as long as you tiller the bow to mimic your style of draw.

Another option that rarely gets mentioned is different length fades eg instead of 3" fades, you put 2" on the lower limb, and 3" on the top limb. The added benefit is you can get a longer sight window,on a wide limbed bow, without sacrificing the length of the working limb. Working limb length still has an equal layout.

This is a great suggestion hamish. 
I do split finger draw personal preference.  I find bow is quieter.  I also prefer a shelf on my hunting bows.   I do as hamish mentioned and lengthen the fades on top limbs especially on bows with narrower limbs under 1.5” wide at fades.  As mentioned this adds strength for the top limb that has a cut in shelf.  Arvin’s layout is also a great formula too I’ve used it with great results! Tried and true.  Additionally I think an important aspect of any selfbow build for a good shooter is having the limbs balanced despite how it may look to the eye  at rest and to some degree at full draw.  A positive tiller is completely fine if that lends to a better balanced set of limbs and they come back to rest after the shot.   If they come back to rest at the exact some time you will feel it in the hand.  A well balanced bow shooting a well matched arrow will feel good and have little to no handshock.  Tip dimensions and mass reduction of course play a factor in this too but more important is the limbs coming to rest at the same time.   This may not be noticed on the tiller tree.  You need to shoot it and get a good feel for it through final stages of tiller.  Just my 2 cents.  Best of luck on your build.   

[Jim Davis]

A thing to remember: If the archer does the same thing every time, the arrow will fly the same every time--no matter what the geometry of the bow or how it is tillered. If matching arrows are not grouping well, it's the fault of the archer, not the bow.

I make all my bows with the handle on center, fades and limbs equal length. It's just easier and looks good.

[bentstick54]

I’m make mine the same as Jim. Has been working for me.

[Hamish]

Equal limbs, centre in the middle of the handle is definitely the least complicated, easiest to layout, works well, especially for a stiff handled bow. For a bow that bends through the handle I prefer the arrow pass to be 1" above centre, due to balance when shooting.

[ssrhythm]

For a 3 under draw bow your new proposed method is the easiest, most direct method.
All methods will work for any bow as long as you tiller the bow to mimic your style of draw.

Another option that rarely gets mentioned is different length fades eg instead of 3" fades, you put 2" on the lower limb, and 3" on the top limb. The added benefit is you can get a longer sight window,on a wide limbed bow, without sacrificing the length of the working limb. Working limb length still has an equal layout.

This is one of those "why didn't I think of that" moments!  Yes!

[Hamish]

I rarely see people use or mention different length fades. I can't remember ever seeing it in bowyers books from any era.
I do have a vintage bow in my collection that does. It's an osage static recurve with brush nocks, sold by Outdoor Sports, I'm guessing from the 1940s, or early 1950's. It has a 2" lower fade and a 3" upper fade. Styled off a Grumley bow, though I don't know if the Grumley also had different length fades.

I wouldn't be in the least surprised if plenty of bowyers have tried and liked this solution over the ages. There is rarely anything new when it comes to wood bows, just rediscovery.

[TimBo]

Al Herrin mentions the longer upper fade in Cherokee Bows and Arrows.  Makes sense to me since I like the balance with a shorter lower limb, so I have made my last couple that way. 

[Hamish]

Thanks Timbo. I have a copy of Al's book floating around somewhere in my book collection. That does ring a bit of a bell now that you mention it.
Good to know.