horse hair on belly of bow

[pierce_schmeichel]

Hey guys I have been shooting this idea around in my mind for a while and just haven't really done it. So i have always wanted to make a horn bow but have never had access to horn. I thought about using horse hair for the belly of the bow. The idea is to dunk the horse hair in hide glue and adhere it to the belly of the bow with the hide glue. In a very similar way you would use flax fibers on the back of the bow. Since horn and hair are pretty much the same thing I wonder if it would work. WHat do you guys think? Do you think this might work effectively? or do you think it would buckle and delaminate or something?

[Hamish]

Even if you eventually perfected the process, It would be much easier to source some horn(even if you pay top dollar), than try what you suggest.

Theoretically you might be able do what you suggest. Hair and horn are both keratin, but horn is very dense and tightly compressed. Its hard to know how much thickness of hair you would need to achieve the same effect as horn.
 Would hide glue be the best choice, especially if you need a lot of thickness? Would it become too brittle?

Some type of natural/synthetic hybrid from hair and a modern resin set into a strip, like a piece of fibreglass backing might be viable.
But then is it really all the hair doing the work, or is it the resin?

So I doubt you would be successful just slapping on some hair in glue on the belly, and expecting to get similar results to a traditional horn bow.

The bow might hold together, if it's not too short, but in all likelihood the hair wouldn't be of the correct thickness to properly resist compression, and would just cover up the real damage happening underneath.

[Selfbowman]

I agree. Atlantic coral Enterprizes has good prices on horn just saying. About a dollar a inch in length for gemsbok horn . Just takes one with a band saw.

[pierce_schmeichel]

Hamish Yeah that's What I was thinking. I think I should do a simple test with Maybe a mini bow. That way I don't do any damage to a full sized bow. I guess we will never know unless we test it.

I also think I might try just taking some horse hair and dunking it in the hide glue and then just setting it on some wax paper to form a "horn" of some sort..in a bow shape of course. After that I guess ill sinew back that and see how It does.

I don't really see a point in using a resin tho because at that point you aren't really using natural materials and might as well use fiberglass.

We know that hide glue does well enough in tension because It works on the backs of bows with sinew. but I guess we will find out if it works in compression without buckling or if it has any potential at all. 

also thank you selfbowman for the horn source!

[willie]

welcome to PA, Pierce

if you like experimenting, you already know that there could be some "issues" with the untried. 

Maybe a lever design with the belly enhancement limited to short wide working sections?  there are some tutorials on applying sinew with rubber bicycle tube wrappings in the archives that could help 

[Del the cat]

You can't push a piece  of string.
Del

[simk]

not sure where I haave seen it - maybe on paleo planet - but I think Tim Baker made some experiments building up a bow's belly from hideglue....! dunno how it came  out tough - maybe ask him.
cheers

[sleek]

I have done experiments with this using my own hair. I've grown my hair down to my waist line several times and cut it off for this very purpose. I used hide glue to secure hair to one bow limb that had a hinge in it. The hair worked to stiffen the hinge, and made the limb as a whole stronger than the other limb. The problem I encountered was that hair is slick and glue does not hold it very well. I'm going to try some acid to see if I can etch the hair sheath so the glue bonds better. Then there is the issue of air bubbles, it's a solvable problem, but a problem no less.

Point is, yes, it will work. But my gosh what a pain in the a. I'm this far into it, I'm going to finish the project, then never do it again.

[pierce_schmeichel]

I have done experiments with this using my own hair. I've grown my hair down to my waist line several times and cut it off for this very purpose. I used hide glue to secure hair to one bow limb that had a hinge in it. The hair worked to stiffen the hinge, and made the limb as a whole stronger than the other limb. The problem I encountered was that hair is slick and glue does not hold it very well. I'm going to try some acid to see if I can etch the hair sheath so the glue bonds better. Then there is the issue of air bubbles, it's a solvable problem, but a problem no less.

Point is, yes, it will work. But my gosh what a pain in the a. I'm this far into it, I'm going to finish the project, then never do it again.

sweet! So someone has tried it! and yeah I was thinking maybe even dunking the hair into a lye solution to pull all of the oils off from the hair. Maybe even a wood ash solution to keep it in the primitive realm. Also I suppose with the bubbles you could try the torch technique. Heat the glue up with a torch or heat gun and the glue liquifies more and then the bubbles float to the surface and pop...Was there a problem with the glue buckling/ cracking at all?

[pierce_schmeichel]

Del the Cat you can push a piece of string if there is something supporting it from side to side like a tube. The glue acts like a tube in a way, a tube that forms perfectly around the hair.

[GlisGlis]

have a read here(remove empty spaces)
Microstructure and mechanical properties of different keratinous horns
https    ://     royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsif.2018.0093

[sleek]

I have done experiments with this using my own hair. I've grown my hair down to my waist line several times and cut it off for this very purpose. I used hide glue to secure hair to one bow limb that had a hinge in it. The hair worked to stiffen the hinge, and made the limb as a whole stronger than the other limb. The problem I encountered was that hair is slick and glue does not hold it very well. I'm going to try some acid to see if I can etch the hair sheath so the glue bonds better. Then there is the issue of air bubbles, it's a solvable problem, but a problem no less.

Point is, yes, it will work. But my gosh what a pain in the a. I'm this far into it, I'm going to finish the project, then never do it again.

sweet! So someone has tried it! and yeah I was thinking maybe even dunking the hair into a lye solution to pull all of the oils off from the hair. Maybe even a wood ash solution to keep it in the primitive realm. Also I suppose with the bubbles you could try the torch technique. Heat the glue up with a torch or heat gun and the glue liquifies more and then the bubbles float to the surface and pop...Was there a problem with the glue buckling/ cracking at all?

The problem with the torch technique you describe is that hair doesn't lay flat. You need the hair compressed into as tight a bundle as you can get it without removing all the glue via squeeze out. So I wrapped my limb in wet stretched rawhide, then let it dry, as it dried in the sun, the glue stayed liquefied, and the rawhide shrunk, pressing the hair into a tight bundle. The glue did crack and buckle in very small areas. That was fixable with superglue however.