Did DC hit 200 fps @ 10GPP after all??

[TimmyDeNorCal]

So, I must have missed the original post when DC posted his Boo Yew RD bow (as of today, Dec. 4th 2022, it is around page 72 or so)...but I came across it earlier today.

It seems that at the end of the responses on that post the general consensus was that it did, in fact, appear to be the first natural materials bow to break the 200 fps @ 10 GPP barrier...

...BUT, I have heard next-to-nothing about it since. I guess I had figured that the bow would be tested in a more official manner - maybe by Badger?? - and then the official reports posted for all of us here (and beyond) to revel in his achievement.

But I didn't see anything more. Either way, it is an amazing achievement, and I commend DC for his unflappable nature and tremendous results. I just was curious if we finally had an all-natural 200+ fps performer in the midst or not...??

[Mo_coon-catcher]

I’ve heard of and know of a few in the ballpark over the years. Several years ago lebhuntfish made the Fury that if I remember right was at the 200fps mark when he made it. I don’t think Pat comes in here much anymore though. But all the 200fps bows I’ve heard of lose that initial speed pretty quick to break in but still settle in the 190 fps area, which is still screaming for a natural material bow. Natural material bows seem to settle into a speed over time.

Kyle

[TimmyDeNorCal]

I did see “The Fury” post. Great bow, great profile. I guess the draw weight was higher than the bowyer thought, so his numbers went down a little...but it was still screaming around the upper 180s or even 191 or something, if I recall correctly.

I was just really curious how DC’s BooYew RD bow turned out...in the end, after any additional testing. Because that bow seemed to be holding up fairly well.

I know the wooden bow tends to drop some speed after its first 20-50+ arrows or so, so the 200fps barrier is even more difficult a task than the number suggests, considering the materials at play. My best is a hackberry self bow RD that I got to finally hold about 2.25” of reflex...it started off around 181, 182 FPS...and I got all excited, of course...and then by the 3rd chrono session (and the 40th arrow or so) it settled in at 175fps.

It’s so hard to conduct valid testing, too. So easy to underdraw, overdraw, get erratic readings, poor lighting, too much lighting, and so on.

But seriously, any bow that even approaches the fabled 200 is an amazing accomplishment. I just was curious what the final take on that BooYew masterpiece ended up being...

[TimmyDeNorCal]

Also - I think the bows that flirt with 200 will be lower draw weight bows, like DC’s BooYew.

It just seems that 30-40# bows respond better at the 10GPP standard. It might just be my experience, but I really do think that higher draw weight bows suffer at 10GPP more so than 30-40#ers. I know it has been discussed before, but the 10GPP might be handicapping higher draw weight bows.

I don’t know have any empirical data on my opinion, but there seems to be something going on with the strain levels 50#+ bows experience that don’t seem to translate their draw cycle into the same speeds that the lower weight bows seem to attain. Of course, maybe my 50#er+ bows are just poorly tillered, or poorly designed, but they shoot well...I just cannot seem to achieve the same chrono readings that the 40-42#ers can.

[mmattockx]

It’s so hard to conduct valid testing, too. So easy to underdraw, overdraw, get erratic readings, poor lighting, too much lighting, and so on.

This is a huge hurdle to get over. I don't doubt DC's last bow did hit 200fps under his testing conditions, but there is no way it would have when shot off fingers in general use. DC was super meticulous about his testing and did everything he could to get consistent results and maximize what those results were.

This isn't a knock on him at all, he was trying to find out what his bows would do under optimum conditions and he worked hard to create those conditions. He used a shooting machine that allowed him to just draw the bow in one smooth motion and have it release exactly at 28" with no pausing or hold at full draw at all. He always shot indoors in his basement and used two chronographs to provide redundancy on the results.

None of this replicates general use of a bow by human hands, but it does show exactly what the bow is capable of at peak.

It just seems that 30-40# bows respond better at the 10GPP standard. It might just be my experience, but I really do think that higher draw weight bows suffer at 10GPP more so than 30-40#ers. I know it has been discussed before, but the 10GPP might be handicapping higher draw weight bows.

That's interesting because I think I've seen more people go the other way and say heavier bows have an advantage for max speed.


Mark

[TimmyDeNorCal]

I absolutely agree that DC did everything he could to test his bow(s) accurately. Hopefully I did not come off as doubtful of his measures, I only meant to inquire into any additional testing, or a final agreed chrono reading, because the post seemed to be heading that way. And, of course, I never came across any more discussions on that amazing BooYew RD masterpiece after the original post.

And likewise, that’s interesting that you, Mark, have seen the exact opposite of my lighter-draw-weight-performing-at-higher-levels theory. Maybe I am just completely off-based, but it just seems like every higher DW bow I test - mine or not - hits a quicker wall speed-wise...

...but, then again, Simon/Simson has a pretty heavy Osage recurve showcased on his site (66-70# or so, I think) that popped 185+fps! That’s such a dern heavy arrow at 10GPP.

I dunno...the speed chase captivates me...still. And there are so many ridiculously talented bowyers floating around this site, so I’m sure there are plenty of bows knocking on the 200fps door at any given time. I’ve just got to jump into the backed-bow game so I can at least play in the parking lot while the pros work out their kinks on-field.

[superdav95]

Timmy.  I’ve also noticed that with my bows.  My 50# and under bows are my best performers as far as speed testing gpp is concerned.  I have several 40-45# bows that outperform gpp wise then my slightly heavier bows at 48-55lbs. There does seem to be a threshold that I’ve noticed also.  The only thing I’ll say is this.  There are almost an infinite number of variables that come into play when it comes to testing speed that I will not even attempt to list them all here.  We would be here all day discussing them and debating them all.  Obviously the design of the bow matters a whole lot in its speed.   One thing I will say that I’ve noticed that may have an influence On your theory is that we as shooters tend to have better/proper form when shooting lighter poundage bows.  Some may say this has little difference but it does matter in my opinion.  The release will likley be better, crisper, cleaner.  The torquing the bow may be less.  Less plucking on release also with lighter weight bows to name a few.  The only way to eliminate some of these factors is to use a trigger release shooting machine to remove these human elements and get consistent readings.  Then you could more confidently see if the theory holds.  My gut tells me based on my own bows is that it does. 

[Tuomo]

Thanks for reminding... I bought one of DC's 200 fps bow, got it and it is really nice bow! It is now here in Finland, waiting for testing. I had problems with my shooting machine and then came other "too much to do" -reasons, so this has forgotten. I really have to take this bow back to high order of priority.

I known that it is difficult take all variables into account but I will try. I want to be very precise and objective. I hope that around the end of the year I have time for this kind of project.

[simk]

We indeed miss DC on here. I have been fascinated by his approach and tried to get the 200 myself. Some of the bows were 190+ but never 200. I also copied DC's design but the results weren't even close to 200 🤔 I then lost interest a little in this actually pointless challenge and instead set my goal in making a smooth accurate simple and durable longbow. I was very surprised by the speeds I got with these 67-68" longbows. My latest test on the shooting machine gave me a solid 198, 197, 196, 196 with 10gpp and a draw of shy under 28" and 212fps for 7.6gpp. I'm pretty sure there is a 200fps-bow amongst these untested bows in my shop. If not it will be possible to make one with only slight adjustments. And yes, they drop over time. The prototype I'm shooting since spring now settled in at 185fps. And yes, lower drawweights clearly allow better results on wooden bows. And yes, in my shop yew as a belly constantly outperforms tropical woods and osage. I will take a video of the next testing and let you know. Cheers

[superdav95]

Sweet looking bows Simk!   The closest I got to this myself was my hickory sinew and horn bow.  It got to 197fps at 10gpp on initial speed testing then it settled in at 189, 191fps after several shots.  It’s reflex settled in at around 7.5”.   The only other bow I had come close to this was a 5 piece bamboo short bow at 194fps at 8.33gpp.  There were things I could have done to speed up my bows that includes my arrows but I didn’t.  Taking the human element out would likley make the difference. 

[bradsmith2010]

I think I remember he did,  but wanted someone else to confirm it,, thats all I recall,,

[willie]

And yes, lower drawweights clearly allow better results on wooden bows.

nice bows simk. 
the bows in the pic seem to indicate you really dont need much special in way of recurving when just a little flipping of the tips will do.

on lower weights vs higher weights:
given many speed breaking bows are often 67-68" long and tend to draw 28' or so...
is there something about these proportions along with the typical density of wood that makes the lower weights perform better? a sweet spot so to speak?

or stated another way. if you were to design a 60# bow to shoot just as fast, and made of the same materials, would the dimensions and draw length need to be proportioned different?

[bradsmith2010]

I think there might be some in the proportions that would need to be different , I am just guessing..

[Badger]

      I have the DC bow in my possession. I need to ship it back to him. But yes his bow did settle in at 200 fps. He was very careful about the testing and used a shooting machine. The bow appeared to be a Mark St Louis design. DC made several and he was struggling to get a bow that didn't take set. That is where they loose all the speed. I believe this bow is 41 or 42# if I remember right. I have never had a bow settle in at 200 fps. I have had a few in the 190's but not self bows. I think 186 was my best ever self bow.
   
     Several years ago I did an experiment where I wanted to see how fast a completely fresh bow would be. I tillered the bow out to 23" and never drew it past there until the test. I extrapolated the full draw weight so it could have been slightly off. Anyway. On the very first shot, it hit 215, the second shot about 211 and then 203 and it kept going down all the way to 157 and it had lost a lot of weight. I reweighed it and adjusted my arrow weight and it had settled in at about 176 I think. This was an osage super recurve with about 12" of backset. I think it ended up with 4". of backset. I had extra wide inner limbs and only had a very small portion of the limbs bending. I built 2 of them. One of them did get a world record in womens flight but nothing to get excited about. If I get time I will retest the DC bow before I send it back to him.

[bradsmith2010]

wow cool thanks so much for the info