Ash bow from spliced stave: Thoughts on design?

[MattCav]

Hi all -

Intro and first questions! I'm Matt, living in Rhode Island. Most of my work is around cast iron, but I do a fair amount of woodworking to get to the iron in the end... I've been interested in making bows for years, and spent most of that time just reading and watching, but I'm finally starting a bow and wanted to check in with you all for opinions (understanding that there are likely to be many!).

Plan for my first bow is a White Ash Z-spliced stave (with G-Flex), cut from a good straight board that produced 6 billets. I’m hoping to get 3 [functional 😬] bows from the whole board. I paired the billets from center outward to match the rings as best as possible.

















I know this is the point where we really get to it, but I’m curious about what you all have to say about design approach for Ash. I've got it down to what looks like a good ring, so I'm not necessarily limited to a pyramid style, but maybe that would be best anyway? I’ve read the “keep it wide and flat” approach, and the “go for long and round bellied” approach, or even a Holmegaard... but curious about successes (or failures!) that you all may have experienced. I've got 77" work with, and a max of 1-3/4" width on this one. There’s a *slight* deflex in the handle area, and a *slight* reflex in the limbs. Ideally looking to get it to be something I can hunt with, ~50lb at 26”.

Any thoughts are very welcome, and thanks in advance!

[willie]

Matt

welcome..seems like you have enough width and length to make a hunting weight bow with either a pyramid back profile or with a design that call for keeping the width fairly straight and tapering the thickness.

the likely challenge for the first few bows will be not to over strain any part of the limb during the tillering process. this happens when the bend radius is too tight for the thickness at hand.

any design that makes use of a longer "working/bending" section of limb will be easier to execute, as you will not have to be working/tillering at the high stress levels of, say a Holmegaard (with non working levers) .

Ash is a good candidate for a design that calls for a flat back and a flat belly, and probably not the best choice for a rounded belly.  As long as the back corners are eased over with the approximate radius of a pea, you should be good to go with the rest as rectangular as you desire. Getting those back corners smooth  (180 grit for now) will help prevent a splinter from lifting.

nice looking splices, btw

can you post links or pics of designs of interest? guys will certainly offer a few tips and tricks if they have a better idea of what style your aiming for

[superdav95]

Nicely done on the z splice. Very tight.  What glue did you use?  G flex?   Also you could make a really nice stiff tipped recurve with flat rings like this one.

[MattCav]

Nicely done on the z splice. Very tight.  What glue did you use?  G flex?   Also you could make a really nice stiff tipped recurve with flat rings like this one.

Thanks! I did use G-Flex. Clamped everything with a ratchet strap going around the limb tips, and Besseys on the sides of the handle section. I'd definitely like to make a recurve as well, and these rings are the same in the other billets too. Perhaps I'll try for some steam bending on the next one.

Matt

welcome..seems like you have enough width and length to make a hunting weight bow with either a pyramid back profile or with a design that call for keeping the width fairly straight and tapering the thickness.

the likely challenge for the first few bows will be not to over strain any part of the limb during the tillering process. this happens when the bend radius is too tight for the thickness at hand.

any design that makes use of a longer "working/bending" section of limb will be easier to execute, as you will not have to be working/tillering at the high stress levels of, say a Holmegaard (with non working levers) .

Ash is a good candidate for a design that calls for a flat back and a flat belly, and probably not the best choice for a rounded belly.  As long as the back corners are eased over with the approximate radius of a pea, you should be good to go with the rest as rectangular as you desire. Getting those back corners smooth  (180 grit for now) will help prevent a splinter from lifting.

nice looking splices, btw

can you post links or pics of designs of interest? guys will certainly offer a few tips and tricks if they have a better idea of what style your aiming for

Duly noted, and thanks for the tips. I think based on what you're suggesting, I may move toward a pyramid to start - even just to cut my teeth with the tillering. I'm finding it hard to actually come up with much imagery of successful Ash bows that aren't just in profile (at least in my own searches), but as for aesthetics, I really enjoy seeing what Leon Loef does, understanding that most of what he uses are more of the "first choice" woods, but still. The attention to the facets and curvature are something I'd aspire to, for sure.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149541802@N05/albums/72157694282318692

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149541802@N05/albums/72157675336754997

https://www.flickr.com/photos/149541802@N05/albums/72157713891273328

Totally understand that some of these examples might not be best suited for this stave (or the other Ash ones, considering its grain). Either way, I'm trying to consider a design that may be most forgiving, especially considering it's #1. I've read enough threads here to know not to get attached too soon. If this one turns out well, I'd like to try another method/design on the next, and so on, to try to put Ash through its paces in multiple ways.

I have some Osage billets, and a long Walnut stave that I cut from a slab as well, along with some Hickory too. Bamboo and access to Ipe aren't too far a stretch either. I know there will be more to work with, so I suppose I shouldn't overthink the first one too much. Still, if there's a tried and true path, I'll take that to start.

[bentstick54]

What is G-flex? I’m not familiar with the term.

[simk]

Hi
Good ash can do almost any design - and yours doesen't look too bad. It might take a little set which can be remvoed later by heat treating. A good heat treating after 95% of the tillering is done is recommended from my side. Pyramid is not a bad idea either - its the easiest design  to tiller imho, in fact it tillers itself  Your splice looks perfect!
cheers

look here for an ash-example (this one is built on the edge tough...)
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,71286.0.html

[MattCav]

What is G-flex? I’m not familiar with the term.

It's a [relatively] flexible epoxy, able to expand an contract with inherent wood movement if necessary. There are some gap filling properties to it as well, though did my best to limits gaps in general! You can see more about it here https://www.westsystem.com/specialty-epoxies/gflex-650-toughened-epoxy/

Hi
Good ash can do almost any design - and yours doesen't look too bad. It might take a little set which can be remvoed later by heat treating. A good heat treating after 95% of the tillering is done is recommended from my side. Pyramid is not a bad idea either - its the easiest design  to tiller imho, in fact it tillers itself  Your splice looks perfect!
cheers

look here for an ash-example (this one is built on the edge tough...)
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,71286.0.html

Simk - That's a lovely bow! I'd certainly like to try to do something like that, if not on this one, then on the next. What's the width of the limbs at the fades? And you mention that it's built on the edge, but it looks like it's on one ring to me - am I missing something from the photos?

[simk]

Hello Matt
the limbs on my bow are approx. 1 3/4"at the widest part. To make myself a little more clear  "on the edge" should mean it's built to the limits of the wood (sorry, english is not my first language). Generally ash is a very good and reliable wood for starters but its not very responsive compared to the premium woods - to me it seems its got noticably more hysteresis; this can be improved some by good heat treatment tough. Heat treatement will also reduce the risk of chrysals.
Wish you fun and success with your first build!

[MattCav]

Ah, got it.

Well, considering those limits, I'll try for something more conservative to start. I'm thinking for this first bow I'll try for 66" long, with a 12" handle section, 1-3/4" at the fades, tapering to 5/8". Seems like that should give plenty of room for a straightforward tiller, but of course, we'll see.

If you guys are suspect about any of those dimensions, by all means, please weigh in!

[Hilongbow]

Aloha Matt,

I made my first ash selfbow a couple years ago and posted it here http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=67374.0
Sorry, its a long read, but if you skip down to the bottom you can see my final specs. I think you are in a great position to get better results than I got. However, I think that the front profile looks really nice, and it shoots sweetly and accurately. I don't think white ash is the best wood for bows, but it holds a special place in my heart.

If I were to do it again, I would definitely have left it a tad wider and several inches longer (I had to shorten it due to knots). During shoot-in, hundreds (if not thousands) of chrysals showed up, but I've taken hundreds of shots and the specs/profile haven't changed. I think the extra length and width would have prevented them.

I'm looking forward to seeing your finished product!

[willie]

Well, considering those limits, I'll try for something more conservative to start. I'm thinking for this first bow I'll try for 66" long, with a 12" handle section, 1-3/4" at the fades, tapering to 5/8". Seems like that should give plenty of room for a straightforward tiller, but of course, we'll see.

for a first bow with 12" dedicated to the handle section, I would consider the shortening operation (from 77 to 66) be done further down the road as you see how the tillering goes. In fact, leaving the stave full width until you get it closer to final thickness and start tillering might make thickness reduction easier, depending on how you choose to reduce. band saw? rasp?

[MattCav]

Aloha Matt,

I made my first ash selfbow a couple years ago and posted it here http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=67374.0
Sorry, its a long read, but if you skip down to the bottom you can see my final specs. I think you are in a great position to get better results than I got. However, I think that the front profile looks really nice, and it shoots sweetly and accurately. I don't think white ash is the best wood for bows, but it holds a special place in my heart.

If I were to do it again, I would definitely have left it a tad wider and several inches longer (I had to shorten it due to knots). During shoot-in, hundreds (if not thousands) of chrysals showed up, but I've taken hundreds of shots and the specs/profile haven't changed. I think the extra length and width would have prevented them.

I'm looking forward to seeing your finished product!

Took a look - quite a journey! I think these billets are probably a little less intense than what you you were working with! Still, so encouraging to see what you were able to pull out of something that challenging.

for a first bow with 12" dedicated to the handle section, I would consider the shortening operation (from 77 to 66) be done further down the road as you see how the tillering goes. In fact, leaving the stave full width until you get it closer to final thickness and start tillering might make thickness reduction easier, depending on how you choose to reduce. band saw? rasp?

I hear you on that, makes sense to be prudent. I do plan for mass reduction with a band saw, rasp and scraper to follow with more precision, and was planning on doing that pre-profile, keeping the waste, and using it as a support for each side to cut the profile. Would you suggest still cutting the pyramid [to 77] before tillering? 

Alternatively, would there be a better length for the handle section? Shorter? I'm [kind of arbitrarily] using the dimensions from TBB1 in the spliced billets section - granted, that bow was Yew, and not as wide. Just curious as to how the handle length specifically influenced that advice. For what it's worth, I'm 5'7", so looking to have something that's not tooooo much taller than me for the field. I've seen other posts mentioning a handle section as short as 7" - would that be preferable for a target length of 66"?

Thanks!

[willie]

Would you suggest still cutting the pyramid [to 77] before tillering? 

sure. it gives you wiggle room in both thickness and string alignment.  Its not the only way to do it, but if your profile is pyramid, and you do not plan to heat recurve the tips, then the design lends itself the possibility of a gradual reduction of the profile , which can happen as you tiller. You could even do the profile reduction after you reach full draw, a bit at a time until the limbs show set.  It is much easier to tiller a longer limb to full draw without set than a shorter.
Did you see    http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,61452.0.html
The pyramid design also lends itself well to using a Gizmo, as the desired bend radius remains consistent.

I think your handle length decision is well chosen for a first bow.

[MattCav]

Again, thanks for the tips! [Maybe] last question before I start cutting - actually about the tips...

Given the slight deflex in the overall length, is it worth considering recurving the tips? I know there are obvious benefits in performance, and I feel plenty capable to do so, though I'm curious about "ideal" radius and length of the recurve if I move in that direction. I've also got those other billets I can work with later, so if this stave doesn't necessarily "call for it," then I know there's plenty of time to try it in the future.

Thanks again!

[Beba]

Matt, welcome to this addiction.
Most difficult part of learning to build self bows for me was tillering. I second the recommendation for the tillering gizmo. Easy to make and use. You’ll find the build along and how to use on palioplanet. It will help develop your eye for tiller.
I like a 4” handle with 3” fades giving me a 10” nonworking handle section. Rounded corners make a fairly graceful looking back profile. I think it was Tim Baker in TBB1 that recommended the working limbs be equal to the draw length. These measurements would give you a 62” ntn bow. I’d recommend starting with at least the 66” you talked about or even 68” ntn. You can always take more wood off but putting it back on is another story.
I also agree with tempering the belly when the tiller is close to done. You can also add some back set at that point to get rid of the deflex your concerned about.