The Disgrace that is the Hollywood Bow...

[TimmyDeNorCal]

I always enjoy seeing the bow & arrow heavily featured in a TV show or a feature-length film...

...until the viewer finally gets to see the bow fire an arrow. Because at that point the bow then just becomes a disgrace.

Just about every show that features Native American archery tackle would leave the unsophisticated viewer believing the Native American bow had a draw weight of about 10# and a maximum cast of about 50 yards. And not only that, but for the arrow to even travel a measly 50 yards the arrow had to be launched at flight-shoot angles (plus one would think that Native Americans knew or cared nothing at all for well-tuned arrows...and we all know that that is far from the truth!).

I think I understand the reasoning for such poor examples of supposedly historical bows - I mean, look at what just happened on that set with one of the Baldwin actors! That guy accidentally shot and killed someone with a gun that was not supposed to have live ammunition!

And so I understand the desire for safety on a film set. And I understand how that would extend to bows and arrows. But could there not be a better compromise between much more accurate bow renditions that performed closer to their real historical counterparts??

The answer, of course, is yes. With all of the ridiculous advancements in special effects the arrow flight could just be rendered in later in editing. That would seem to make the most sense...being that it is a nice trade off between historical accuracy and on-set safety. That would also allow for the bows to be physically accurate specimens...and not just full parallel-limbed wood lamination strips  with emergency/survival nocks cut  into the “tips.”

Yet film-makers still choose not to do so. I am watching the show “The Son” right now. The show’s plot follows the lead character (played by an older Pierce Brosnan) when he was about 15 and a Comanche prisoner and then 60+ years later as a burgeoning oil man. From what I recall, Comanche bows generally averaged higher draw weights than most Native bows...yet the show depicts their warriors’ bows with small child-bow draw weights and casts.

It is pathetic. And for a well-made show in seemingly every other respect, it greatly reduces the legitimacy of the show in my eyes. But I know that I am an exception. Because no one else around me ever seems to care that Hollywood bows look & shoot like dogs...

...which is why I decided to bring this to you all. Because I know the PA crowd cares as much as I do.

* Also - I am new to PA in the sense that this is only my 2nd post or response...but I scour these threads with a fervor. The knowledge and experience here is truly outstanding (and inspiring). And at some point I will figure out how to post pictures so that I can share a few of my bows!

[Eric Krewson]

Back after Dances with Wolves came out I was taking a vacation in Gatlinburg and visiting the Polly Bergin art gallery. They just happened to have a lot of the clothing and equipment for sale from the movie at the time I was there.

Who ever had handled the period correct clothing and props had gone the extra mine to make everything as authentic as possible.

The bows and arrows could have come out of museum, perfect replicas of plains Indian's sinew backed bows and arrows. The arrows where properly made with real not fake sinew attaching the feathers.

The arrows were priced at $100 each, the bows at $1200 and the more notable dresses at $600 if I remember correctly. Lots of money at the time for a couple just starting out.

[Eric Krewson]

A guy who used to be on here a lot made the initial bows for the Hunger Games movies, he made fake ones to be held at full draw for scenes and the real thing to be shot. I think the producers gravitated away from selfbows to laminated bows after the movie started shooting.

[PaSteve]

Back in the 90's I attended a bow making class held by Dave Kissimger. Dave made some bows for Hollywood movies back in the 90's. He said all the bows he made were functional and authentic to the time period. As to whether there were additional bows on the set that were "props" I can't say.

[JW_Halverson]

Back after Dances with Wolves came out I was taking a vacation in Gatlinburg and visiting the Polly Bergin art gallery. They just happened to have a lot of the clothing and equipment for sale from the movie at the time I was there.

Who ever had handled the period correct clothing and props had gone the extra mine to make everything as authentic as possible.

The bows and arrows could have come out of museum, perfect replicas of plains Indian's sinew backed bows and arrows. The arrows where properly made with real not fake sinew attaching the feathers.

The arrows were priced at $100 each, the bows at $1200 and the more notable dresses at $600 if I remember correctly. Lots of money at the time for a couple just starting out.

Some of the DWW bows/arrows were made by Mike Stocklin from Faith SD. His work was superior and historically correct including materials. Some were made by Gary "Doc" Hermann and he used a lot of artificial sinew and wooden dowels for the arrows. I own many of the "victim" arrows that were broken off short to stick into the actors to simulate being shot.

I believe there were a number of other bowyers from various reservations in South Dakota that also contributed to the armory.

[bassman211]

Revenant was a movie made a few years ago . The bows, and arrows were made by Eric Smith, and true to life in every way. He has a web site if any one is interested in looking at his plains bows.

[TimmyDeNorCal]

I think I should added that not all every show or film’s bows and arrows are plain ridiculous. In my many google searches I have read about how some true bowyers were commissioned for the archery tackle for certain shows and movies.

And I take great joy in seeing their work on screen. It is just the poorer versions that really bother me. Especially when it leaves some people thinking that Native archery was/is a joke or ineffective. And after witnessing the arrows fly in “The Son” any and all causal viewers would be left thinking that the Comanche - and maybe most all tribes, for that matter - were poor weaponry craftsman. Especially since I am part Native American myself and also a huge primitive archery aficionado.

I’ve considered buying a copy of Eric Smith’s book. It’s been in my “Saved for Later” section of my Amazon cart for months now.

[bownarra]

Imagine how different TV would be if only the truth was shown... 

[Gimlis Ghost]

Unless special efforts were made to find extras with at least some archery skills the weaker faux bows would be a necessary evil. It does suprise me that they wouldn't at least have a few skilled archers firing off some arrows from more powerful bows and editing those shots in.

I haven't seen anything that suggests the Comanche used more powerful bows than most other tribes. They were mainly noted for their superior volume of fire, keeping 6 or more arrows in the air before the first reached the target.
Some Eastern and far northern tribes used very powerful bows closer to European warbows in performance. The Eskimo used horn bows of 80+ pounds pull.

This discussion does point out the superior depiction of arrows in warfare of many much older films.

Just recently I've tried to remember the title of a film that had a scene where a warrior slashed the bow string of a foe who was drawing a bead on a friend. The bow at full draw recoiled shattering the upper limb. At the time I saw this it made no impression till I read of the dangers of dry firing and of broken strings causing such damage.
Whether the shattering of the limb was intentional or an unexpected result I'll never know.

[JW_Halverson]

Just recently I've tried to remember the title of a film that had a scene where a warrior slashed the bow string of a foe who was drawing a bead on a friend. The bow at full draw recoiled shattering the upper limb. At the time I saw this it made no impression till I read of the dangers of dry firing and of broken strings causing such damage.
Whether the shattering of the limb was intentional or an unexpected result I'll never know.

Keep us posted if you remember the title of the film. I'd like to see that!

[PatM]

The archery in the 1994 TV movie Warrior Spirit as quite well done albeit rather brief.   Pretty authentic looking gear.

[bassman211]

Jim Hamm remarked that the Kiowa natives must have been weight lifters ,because of the heavy pull bows that many of them made, and shot. On the flip side David Carridine interviewed a modern day Souix native that was shooting a replica bow at a moderate distance, and the arrows were barely sticking in the target, but at point blank range on horse back would kill a Buffalo. It was a simple D shaped bow. Their was a diversity of bows made by different tribes, and even with in the tribes. West coast sinew lined bows being among some of the best. I made an eastern woodland replica Sudbury bow from Hickory that turned out much like the museum bow even  with the same amount of set. At 45lbs. and my short 25 inch 3 under draw the bow would shoot in the low 130's  in fps with a 470 gr. wood arrow ,and flint head. Their was bountiful game back then, and they were good stalkers.

[JW_Halverson]

Jim Hamm remarked that the Kiowa natives must have been weight lifters ,because of the heavy pull bows that many of them made, and shot. On the flip side David Carridine interviewed a modern day Souix native that was shooting a replica bow at a moderate distance, and the arrows were barely sticking in the target, but at point blank range on horse back would kill a Buffalo. It was a simple D shaped bow. Their was a diversity of bows made by different tribes, and even with in the tribes. West coast sinew lined bows being among some of the best. I made an eastern woodland replica Sudbury bow from Hickory that turned out much like the museum bow even  with the same amount of set. At 45lbs. and my short 25 inch 3 under draw the bow would shoot in the low 130's  in fps with a 470 gr. wood arrow ,and flint head. Their was bountiful game back then, and they were good stalkers.

Was that the TV show where they would spotlight two disparate cultures and their weapons in a "head to head" competition shooting into a ballistic gel dummy or stabbing it with knives/swords/whatever? "Deadliest Warrior"?

[PatM]

Actual replicas  usually do much better.  Pope's Sudbury replica reached 173 yards with a  bamboo flight arrow.

 Laubin documented excellent results with tiny Plains replicas.

[bassman211]

No Jzw this program was on the history channel.