Alternative ways of putting horn bows together

[HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)]

I would like to start a discussion about alternative ways to put horn bows together. The typical method of getting all the components together is to use animal glue. But animal glue, for all its strengths, is notoriously finnicky to make and use. It's more of an art than a concrete method, it takes a while to master, is time consuming to make, and even experts can easily screw up in more ways than one.


For example, I have not seen any discussion in the bowyering community about the medieval horn bows which used nails (more like tacks) to affix the horn plates to the wooden core. Has anyone here made one of these? If not, someone ought to! This gets around the animal glue issue for the horn-wood surfaces. However, it would probably be considerably heavier than glue. These would probably not make good flight bows, but were issued to cavalry for war.

Sometimes I have wondered if low-stress hornbow designs ( like those with deflexed limbs) even need to have the horn/core surfaces glued. A glued-sinew wrapping ought to be sufficient? Obviously you still have to use glue for the sinew, unless you use a cable backing.

[bownarra]

Collagen glues are not difficult to use. Just the same as any glue - follow the 'instructions'....if you don't....good luck!
If you have the skills necessary to make a hornbow you could quite easily learn how to use collagen based glues. If on the other hand you can't use collagen based glues....you should probably forget about making hornbows
The correct use of the glue is not the hard part
IF there was another viable method it would be in common use.
You aren't an expert if "you screw up easily" you may think you are but you aren't An 'expert' has already made the mistakes and won't do so again

[HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)]

Collagen glues are not difficult to use. Just the same as any glue - follow the 'instructions'....if you don't....good luck!
If you have the skills necessary to make a hornbow you could quite easily learn how to use collagen based glues. If on the other hand you can't use collagen based glues....you should probably forget about making hornbows
The correct use of the glue is not the hard part
IF there was another viable method it would be in common use.
You aren't an expert if "you screw up easily" you may think you are but you aren't An 'expert' has already made the mistakes and won't do so again

Strongly disagree, bownarra. The world had largely stopped making horn bows in the 1700s, so more knowledge has probably been lost than gained since the re-advent of horn bowyering that took place in the late 1900s. What we know today is just a small part ot the past that we have managed to re-interpret and re-construct. You better believe there are other methods of doing this. We just haven't figured them out, yet.

There were other ways of doing things in the past. Take wheels, for example, like on a wagon or a chariot. Everybody knows that wheels have spokes, and those spokes have to be be driven in to the hub, and that involves doing a lot of banging on a chisel, right?

Well, not for dynastic Egyptian chariot wheels.  Their spokes consisted of pieces of wood that had been bent in to a V-shape that were glued and bound to the hub with catgut.

https://www.brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/courses/fightingpharaohs10/9985.html




It's something that people wouln't have imagined -- until they found them. "There's no other viable way, or it'd exist by now", they'd say. And yet ways did exist in the past for making wheels, which had been entirely forgotten by humanity for thousands of years, until we found this stuff, examined it, and re-constructed it.

There's no doubt in my mind there were, or can be, other ways of putting hornbows together.

[HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)]

OK guys, before I go to bed, I want to share some quotes from an article I read about Native American horn bows. I highlighted the controversial parts myself.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25667604.pdf

Mountain sheep horn bows are mentioned
 in a number of contexts dealing with
 Shoshonean cultural groups and their super
 ior quality over other types is always noted
 (see e.g., Wilson-Driggs 1919:107; Dominick
 1964:155-156; Lowie 1924:246) and Grinnell
 (1972:174-175) describes horn bows among
 the Cheyenne. Three of these accounts offer
 some insight into their manufacture.
 
"These bows were made from the thick ridge on the  upper side of the ram's horn. The horn was heated  over the coals to soften it and then the naturally  curling horn was straightened. Unwanted portions of  the horn were whittled away, and the remaining solid  piece was 18 to 24 inches long and one inch thick at  the butt. Heat was again applied, making the horn  semi-plastic, and it was smoothed and shaped by  pounding with a round stone.

The end result was a  very smooth and evenly tapered piece which was  oval-shaped in cross section. A duplicate of this was  made from the ram's other horn, and the two pieces  were beveled at their butt ends and fitted together. A  separate piece of horn about five inches long and as  wide as the butt ends was placed at their junction.  Wet rawhide was then wrapped around the three  pieces. When it dried, this made a very firm joint.  Sinew strips which came from the neck and back of  large animals were glued to the back of the bow to  give it added strength. The glue was made by placing  shavings from the hoof and small bits of thick  neck-skin or back-skin in boiling water, and then as a  thick scum formed, it was skimmed off."  "It took two months for a skilled specialist to turn  out such a bow, and other Shoshoni people and even  people of other tribes traded eagerly for them."  (Dominick 1964:155-156). 

According to Dominick this account of  horn bow manufacture was obtained from  a Jack Contor who was head of the welfare  office in Blackfoot, Idaho and who had made  the history and culture of the Northern  Shoshone a hobby.  Another brief account of Shoshoni horn  bow manufacture was by Nick Wilson who  spent some time as a boy among Chief Washakie's group:

"The bows were sometimes made of mountain  sheep horns, which were thrown into some hot spring  and left there until they were pliable. Then they were  shaped, and a strip of sinew was stuck on the back  with some kind of balsam gum that was about as good  as glue. This made a powerful bow. Not many Indians  had this kind, most of our Indians used bows made  from white cedar strung with sinew along the back."  (Wilson-Driggs 1919:107).

 The authenticity of the two accounts is  difficult to evaluate. Contor apparently  obtained his information from informants  while Wilson was an actual observer. Some  actual experimentation with mountain sheep  horn using both direct heat and hot water  would undoubtedly yield some valuable data

[Digital Caveman]

Nailing a bow together is cheap, but it will disrupt the integrity of the lams and will not be so uniform as glue.  This means that it would have to be over built.  Though if you over built it it would probably work ok. 

[Aaron H]

There are other ways of doing it.... it’s just none of them work 

Stick to the tried and true ways, practice, and you will have success.  If not, best of luck to you.

[bownarra]

You are of course absolutely within your rights to 'strongly disagree' - no problem. I can't wait to see the bow you make with your alternative methods. Comparing a wheel to a hornbow is a little off the mark though
Hornbows are incredible things - I respectfully suggest you make a few to get a fuller understanding of what you are talking about. I'm onto about number 20.

[AndrewS]

@hanibal

search  for grozerarchery from hungary and have a look on the biocomposit bows of grozer. Csaba Grozer describes his method to produce this bows: "the middle layers of wood, the inner layer of pressed horn, while the outer layer of pressed sinew plate. These two layers are glued to the wooden plate by modern glue and the glued layer gets a fibre strengthening."

I think it is not really primitive cause the fibre strengthening is some sort of glasfibre and the glues are expoy and/or modern carpenters glue but Csaba build this sort of bows since 15 or more years.  He also builds horn composit bows in the traditional way. Then he uses fishbladder glue.

[BowEd]

Rather odd and disconnected comparing a wheel to a bow.A bow is a working piece [bending] and a wheel is stationary [fixed].

[JW_Halverson]

You know, it was not that long ago we had someone in here stirring the pot in a remarkably similar manner. Picking a subject, posting contrarian cherry picked data and looking to start trouble. This person had never built a single bow in their life, had zero experience, but somehow felt the need to contradict known experts in the field.

Something smells funny again.

[bownarra]

You know, it was not that long ago we had someone in here stirring the pot in a remarkably similar manner. Picking a subject, posting contrarian cherry picked data and looking to start trouble. This person had never built a single bow in their life, had zero experience, but somehow felt the need to contradict known experts in the field.

Something smells funny again.


100% I smell herrings

[HanibalLecter(InnerSmile)]

Rather odd and disconnected comparing a wheel to a bow.A bow is a working piece [bending] and a wheel is stationary [fixed].

I'm not comparing them. I'm using the Egyptian chariot wheel as an example of a radically different ( and honestly, more refined/intelligent) way of doing something that was lost on the people of the future.

This archery stuff sure seems to attract some simple minded individuals.

[Parnell]

InnerSmile,

To the point of your inquiry, I don’t recall or have never read anything regarding tack secured horn plates.  My experience in horn bows is, however, limited.  I would be interested in seeing examples of this, perhaps you can post those?

Seeing as how you are new to the forum with few posts and are diving down an esoteric rabbit hole it doesn’t seem simple minded to question your intentions or perspective, at all.  It seems, instead, properly justified.

You write “This archery stuff...”.  That does come across as though you have very limited personal experience.  But, perhaps I am wrong. If so, please, post some of your work so the community can gain insight into your background and intention.

You are proposing that someone ought to pursue a tack driven project.  You thereby ask for someone else’s time and effort.  With sincerity, do you have intentions to work at answering this question for yourself?  If so, I am confident that the forum will do its level best to support your efforts to illustrate a more refined and intelligent approach to the craft.

Sincerely,

Stephen Parnell

[WhistlingBadger]

Given the amazing amount of work involved with building a horn bow, I would stick with the tried-and-true methods if I were to build one.  If someone were to put in the time and elbow grease to figure out an easier way, more power to 'em--I don't think you'll get any objection from anyone.  But don't go insulting people because they recommend the tried-and-true method to someone who, as far as we can tell, is an absolute beginner.  That isn't being small-minded; it's just being sensible.

By the way, the mountain Shoshone you mention used rawhide to splice together their horn pieces.  But my understanding is that, for the limbs, they used good old hide glue to attach the horn and sinew to the wood core.

[BowEd]

Rather odd and disconnected comparing a wheel to a bow.A bow is a working piece [bending] and a wheel is stationary [fixed].

I'm not comparing them. I'm using the Egyptian chariot wheel as an example of a radically different ( and honestly, more refined/intelligent) way of doing something that was lost on the people of the future.

This archery stuff sure seems to attract some simple minded individuals.

I got exactly what you meant.It's still disconnected.Problem is you can't seem to fathom our meaning.A testament to your intelligence and maturity.Meanwhile we keep cranking out bows to show on this forum.While you sit on the side lines and watch and lurk.Who's the sub par gifted person now?All of this conversaton is flying right over top of your head without you even getting a sniff of it's meaning or the willingness to understand it.