Author Topic: arrow spine  (Read 3339 times)

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Offline Jjpso

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arrow spine
« on: March 02, 2021, 01:01:29 pm »
hello there!
i have one question!
i understand all the consideratiobns that affect the spine (length of the arrow, point weigth, recurved or not, fastfligth or dacron, distrance to center shot)

imagine i have a 55-60 arrow, 30 inches long and with 100 grain point, dacron, close to center, not recurved. that arrow will behave like a 50-55 arrow, if i am not mistaken.
but how does draw length changes this?! for instance, what will be the dynamic spine of that same arrow, if the draw length is 25 inches?
regards

Joćo

Offline Jon_W

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Re: arrow spine
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2021, 01:25:39 pm »
If you compare the same arrow on the same bow with differing draw lengths the shorter draw would make the arrow appear stiffer. The relation of how the arrow reacts to changes in bows is what makes the spine under or over spined. As far as I know if you had the exact same bow but one was 50# at 28" and the other 50# at 25" the dynamic spine of the arrow would be the same. But a 50# @ 28" bow only drawn 25" would result in the arrow spine increasing.

Other people will know far more than me though so I am ready to learn from them as well! I could very well be wrong. Playing around with the 3rivers spine calculator may help with some of the theory as well.

https://www.3riversarchery.com/dynamic-spine-arrow-calculator-from-3rivers-archery.html
"So long as the new moon returns in heaven a bent, beautiful bow, so long will the fascination of archery keep hold in the hearts of men"   ~ Maurice Thompson

Offline Jjpso

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Re: arrow spine
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2021, 07:48:07 pm »
If you compare the same arrow on the same bow with differing draw lengths the shorter draw would make the arrow appear stiffer. The relation of how the arrow reacts to changes in bows is what makes the spine under or over spined. As far as I know if you had the exact same bow but one was 50# at 28" and the other 50# at 25" the dynamic spine of the arrow would be the same. But a 50# @ 28" bow only drawn 25" would result in the arrow spine increasing.

Other people will know far more than me though so I am ready to learn from them as well! I could very well be wrong. Playing around with the 3rivers spine calculator may help with some of the theory as well.

https://www.3riversarchery.com/dynamic-spine-arrow-calculator-from-3rivers-archery.html
thanks for your answer. so for example, we have 2 bows, one is 50# at 28", and the other is 50# at 25", and both have the same characteristics. they both shoot an arrow the same length and same point weight, but if the first bow would accept an arrow 50-55 (just an example), the second would need an arrow 35-40! is this correct?

Offline Jon_W

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Re: arrow spine
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2021, 07:53:36 pm »
If they were the exact same bow except one was 50# @ 28" and the other 50# @ 25" then they would shoot the same arrow the same way (in theory). So if the first one shot a 50-55 spined arrow, the second one would shoot it the same. Always worth testing it out too! And no two bows will ever be the exact same except for draw weight. Hope this helps!
"So long as the new moon returns in heaven a bent, beautiful bow, so long will the fascination of archery keep hold in the hearts of men"   ~ Maurice Thompson

Offline Todd Mathis

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Re: arrow spine
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2021, 04:42:37 am »
Those are good answers to your question.  I would trust those to be an excellent place to start.  The only addition for me is that in time you will see that follow through will play a larger role than you might think too!  The things I am still learning!!! 

Offline blindarcher

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Re: arrow spine
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2021, 04:47:04 pm »
Hi All.  I struggle with the concept of dynamic arrow spine.  The following are thoughts I have that may be correct or incorrect, so feedback is more than welcome.  I just have trouble putting all the pieces together:

1. The arrow itself has a natural frequency, depending on distance between end conditions (e.g. draw length defined by arrow nock point and handle).

2. I struggle with what those end conditions really are, such as pinned-free, free-free, pinned with lateral spring constant-free, etc.?

3. I imagine that as the string rolls off the fingers, there is a lateral displacement of the string adding elastic energy to the system in addition to the arrow stiffness as well as a displacement constraint.  How important is this?  Should I be thinking of a bow/arrow system lateral frequency and not just arrow?

4. I imagine the arrowhead may affect the natural frequency of the arrow and maybe reduce it?  How much does this contribute to the vibrational response relative to arrow stiffness?

5. If for instance the correct end conditions for the arrow is free-free, then I imagine that the frequency of vibration is independent of draw weight for given draw length.  However, the amplitude of lateral displacement may be a function of draw weight, maybe?

6. So, whatever the correct means to characterize the arrow's frequency of vibration might be, it is my understanding that the period of vibration (1/frequency) should be in proper ratio with the time for the arrow to leave the bow after release to avoid the arrow backend from slapping the handle.  The time for the arrow to leave the bow is a function of bow stored energy (area under static force/draw curve), bow efficiency, arrow mass and draw length.

It is the method to characterize the arrow natural frequency that alludes me.  Specifically, end conditions and how important are the mass of the arrowhead and lateral stiffness of the string?

Cheers!

Jon

Offline willie

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Re: arrow spine
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2021, 01:38:51 pm »
Jon,

consider the arrow in flight and the forces acting on it after it has left the bow.
    the fletching and the residual vibrations of the shaft left from the "launch".


I think the finger flip applied at the moment of max acceleration/axial compression is the biggest factor to consider before it leaves the string.

Offline blindarcher

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Re: arrow spine
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2021, 09:31:21 pm »
Thanks Willie,

Actually, the fight of the arrow after it leaves the bow is the easy part for me.  I can solve the equations of motion, including aerodynamics (requires aerodynamic and stability derivatives 3 DOF).  Doing so allows me to understand the arrow's momentum with time and distance.  It is characterizing the arrow's vibrational mode from release to when the nock end passes the handle; hence the setting up residual vibration as the arrow leaves the bow that you mentioned.  My concern is matching the vibrational frequency and mode of the arrow/string system to the time it takes the arrow nock to travel the distance of the draw length.  I do not want the arrow nock end to slap the handle.  This is what I believe is what the dynamic spine is all about, I think.

Thanks again and cheers!

Offline willie

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Re: arrow spine
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2021, 11:23:35 pm »
Quote
It is characterizing the arrow's vibrational mode from release to when the nock end passes the handle; hence the setting up residual vibration as the arrow leaves the bow that you mentioned.  My concern is matching the vibrational frequency and mode of the arrow/string system to the time it takes the arrow nock to travel the distance of the draw length.

I can't say I have go so far as to work the math for a particular arrow, but I do recall a chapter in a text where (in theory),  a column (arrow) in static compression was compared to an arrow under acceleration. It seemed the arrow  undergoing acceleration needed to be of a larger diameter towards the nock end. Of course that is the same area where we often taper the arrow most to help the recovery from the lateral finger flip. I could probably find that pdf if you pm your email.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 02:08:39 am by willie »

Offline blindarcher

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Re: arrow spine
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2021, 09:52:32 pm »
Thanks Willie,


Jon
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 06:43:48 pm by blindarcher »