Author Topic: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?  (Read 15672 times)

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Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2021, 01:23:07 pm »
I’m going to guess here string angle. And Sleeks wave theory. That I think there has merit.
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!

Offline Tom Dulaney

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2021, 05:58:56 pm »
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I'm sorry but the assumptions you make about hornbows are wrong. I KNOW for a fact that perfectly functional outer limbs can be made with just wood.

Ok. Nobody doubts that. But for what kind of bow? For a really powerful horn no? No. For the best wood bow? Possibly not.

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The core is what gives hornbows their shape :) Fading the horn out on the belly will give better performance.

Apparently not, according to multiple hornbowyering cultures around the world.

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Wood at around 0.65 sg or horn that is less stiff and 1.3sg......No need at all for bone....The outerlimbs only need a little sinew on the back and require no horn or indeed bone plates on the belly/sides at all. Wood is stiffer than both horn and sinew.


It is true that horn is less stiff than wood and has a higher SG. Nevertheless it is a necessary component on the siyahs of several different types of composite bows, as we shall see, because it is stronger than wood..

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When you say 'whip tillered' I think you actually mean elliptically tillered.

Unfortunately there does not seem to be an auhority out there who has defined what a whip tillered bow is. You guys said the Dan Brown flight longbow I posted was not whip tillered, but it is more whip tillered than several bows on Google's image search engine, which are described by forumites as "whip tillered".

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Why do you think that a bamboo core is lighter than a wooden core? It isn't. The bamboo used is actually quite dense....


It is considerabl less dense than the typical woods used for hornbow cores (i.e. maple).


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Is it just because they are beautifully shaped that Turkish bows do not need bone plates?

Well, the Turkish siyahs (or kasan) couldn't use the bone plates, because their cross sectional area is so different from other bows. Instead, the Turkish bow siyahs/kasan are reinforced with horn and a liberal layer of sinew (thicker than on the working limb). This diagram shows the unique shape of the Turkish bow kasan:



As we can see, the kasan (or siyahs) have a strange shape. They are cupped near the belly, and have a tall center ridge, that looks like a "nipple" in cross section. This essentially maximizes the stiffness of the siyah by giving it both thickness and width, but with a much greater surface area -- less mass.

Nevertheless, it is clear this design would never be stable in an all-wood construction, it has to have horn on the belly and a lot of sinew on the back. The siyah actually consists more of horn and sinew, than wood. It even has a thicker layer of sinew than the working limb. Try carving a shape like that out of wood alone, and how far you can draw it before it detonates.

So while the Turkish bow didn't need bone plates, it most definitely needed sinew and horn....







Offline Tom Dulaney

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2021, 06:05:48 pm »
The insane level of detail that goes in to  a delicate Turkish bow kasan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytr-9sui31M

Offline PatM

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2021, 06:23:57 pm »
You realize Mike is an expert in making Turkish bows.?

You are out of your depth in this discussion.

Offline sleek

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2021, 06:32:12 pm »
I disagree with the actual premises of the title. I never knew no heard if whip tillered bows being spoken poorly of.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline sleek

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2021, 06:32:58 pm »
I disagree with the actual premises of the title. I never knew nor heard of whip tillered bows being spoken poorly of.


I'll add, understanding the efficiencies of a whip tillered bow can actually lead to optimizing certain designs. The knowledge that a whip tillered bow is the most efficient helps me with making my short bows work.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Tom Dulaney

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2021, 06:41:08 pm »
You realize Mike is an expert in making Turkish bows.?

You are out of your depth in this discussion.

That's funny coming from the guy whose sole contribution to the thread has been "look at this mesolithic wood bow" that belonged to a people who got exterminated by the Corded Ware culture using these:







So far bownarra has revealed himself to be an expert in diddly squat.




Offline RyanY

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2021, 06:43:33 pm »
You realize Mike is an expert in making Turkish bows.?

You are out of your depth in this discussion.

That's funny coming from the guy whose sole contribution to the thread has been "look at this mesolithic wood bow" that belonged to a people who got exterminated by Western Steppe Herders using these:







So far bownarra has revealed himself to be an expert in diddly squat.

That’s a pretty disrespectful response for someone with less than 100 posts and a very weak argument.

Offline sleek

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2021, 06:51:57 pm »
I learned post count doesn't matter. There are lurkers ( Hey guys, we know you are out there ) who are better bowyers than many on here who enjoy talking. However...

Its rather arrogant to say a person must "reveal himself" to you, aka convince you and you only, that he has merit before you take any merit to his input. Never mind the ENTIRE crowd here vouches for him. Now I personally had no clue Bownarra made horn bows until this post. But I see the people I do know not arguing with him and that tells me right there, the man has clout and I will open my ears,  shut my yap, and turn my ego off.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline PatM

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2021, 07:27:37 pm »
He was AKA as mikekeswick.



Offline sleek

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2021, 07:40:14 pm »
He was AKA as mikekeswick.

Ahhhhh, well see there, my intuition served me well. Mike is most probably the biggest resource on horn bows outside of Adam, and thats only because I don't think Mike has written a book. Hey Mike, you have work yet ahead of you.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline PatM

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2021, 09:52:53 pm »
   The idea that steppe herders exterminated Neolithic Danes is a new one.  The must have built time machines as well as bows.

Offline George Tsoukalas

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2021, 09:09:17 am »
Whip tillering increases the string angle making for more stacking which decreases the string angle. That can be counteracted  by making the bow longer. Jawge
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Offline Nasr

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2021, 01:15:30 pm »
I have nothing to contribute except to say that those examples are not whip tillered. The horn bow is shaped that way. Similar to a gull wing bow. And the other picture with the flight record also don’t seem ship tillered. Wouldn’t that horn bow stack like crazy which would mean it isn’t efficient.

Offline Badger

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Re: Why do whip ended bows have a bad reputation?
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2021, 03:10:06 pm »
  I used to prefer bows that were slightly whip tillered as they seem to be more efficient for shooting light arrows. Overall I don't think wood lends itself very well to whip tillering. It takes a lot of bend in the outer limbs to give much draw length. You will see a lot of modern bows recurves that are basically whip tillered, I think what they are basically accomplishing is less working limb and more efficiency because the limbs have less room to distort or vibrate.