Author Topic: Unbacked ERC bow?  (Read 1811 times)

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Offline eastcreekarchery

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Unbacked ERC bow?
« on: January 07, 2021, 11:32:13 am »
I understand that ERC or junipers are usually back when made into a bow, but has anyone had success with an ERC selfbow?

Offline PatM

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2021, 11:42:21 am »
Seen quite a few on here and elsewhere.

Offline bassman

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2021, 01:06:40 pm »
Watched Dave Mead make one ,and shoot it. Also saw a Texas juniper self bow that turned out nice. Both are good compression wood, but not that good in tension from what I have read. Guess that is why our natives sinew backed them. If you make a self bow from it ,and it  it lets go it explodes. Not first hand experience. Just what I have read.

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2021, 07:15:14 pm »
From what I understand from my “research”...because I’m wanting to make a juniper bow...is that ERC and western juniper are not the same animal.  Western Juniper have the blue berries that taste like Gin.  I’ve heard and read the same as already mentioned; both are good in compression and not so good in tension, but the ERC is worse in tension than the Western Juniper.  Regardless, they can both be made into self bows if designed to overcome the weak-in-tension issues.  That said, most have stated that an unbacked bow of either is a gamble not worth taking; when they fail, they do so with sudden, no-warning, explosive mayhem that can cause injury and soiled skivvies. 

I recently chatted with an outstanding gentleman who moderated here 10 years ago or more about visiting his neck of the woods to share some time and stories and knowledge while I’m out there gathering stave trees and arrow shoots.  He said unequivocally that a well designed and produced Western Juniper would be by far my favorite, lightest, fastest etc hunting bow.  I told him of these worries from all I’ve read, and he said “find one of those big old junipers, find you a nice straight limb as big as you can find, and make the bow from that limb with the skyward facing “top” of the limb as the back, as this limb is growing super tight rings and growing under tension from gravity it’s entire existence.”  He also made sure to say “...and back it with sinew...not a bunch, maybe three nice layers.” 

One of his juniper bows was PA bow of the year back in the day...and he says to back it.  That was enough for me to dismiss the 1% of my thinking that maybe I’d make it an overbuilt self bow.  That said, it’s certainly doable, but I’m not sure I understand the “why” on this particular choice.

Offline PatM

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2021, 07:28:49 pm »
ERC has those "berries" too.  It's a juniper trait.

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2021, 07:57:51 pm »
I just read my post...understand this is all what I’ve been told and read...could be completely to somewhat wrong.  Just passing along what I’ve been told. 

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2021, 08:02:05 pm »
I just read my post...understand this is all what I’ve been told and read...could be completely to somewhat wrong.  Just passing along what I’ve been told.

Really?!?  Dangit!  I’ve never noticed them on ERCs...of course, I never looked at an ERC when I lived back East and before starting to make bows other than to dream about the buck that had rubbed it.  Any insight on differentiating twixt the two?  I’ve got my sights set on a sweeeet limb that, until now, I was sure was a WJuniper.  Do ERCs grow in SE Wyoming?  Arrgh!

Offline PatM

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2021, 09:28:00 pm »
The Juniper species hybridize wherever they overlap.  Evidence shows that some contain a mix of several species.
     
   

gutpile

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2021, 08:12:44 am »
I have exploded an ERC bow and it is not fun... when they blow it is an explosive wood no warning given just gone.. I have a sinew backed ERC that is a screamer and super light in hand.. flipped tips 3 course sinew.. well two and fill in in third.. I hung a 25lb weight from handle in between two chairs for a few months while she dried.. came out super sweet...all sapwood bow with a lil heartwood on handle great early tension on string... I still prepare for explosion when I brace it LOL... shot it last night... ERC longbow unbacked have been accomplished even in 120lb range.. .. but IMO if I got a clean stave I am going to sinew back that rascal... actually I got a clean stave at house and I am going to recurve this one and sinew back it too... probably in spring when it warms up a bit... gut
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 01:36:26 pm by gutpile »

Offline Swampman

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2021, 08:27:25 am »
I have an ERC self bow that has survived for a couple years so far.  It was a very clean stave and had some natural deflex that I left.  I also made it long. I think it is 71 inches or so and it is 45 pound draw at 28 inches.  I haven't shot it lately but I did shoot it some last summer.  It is a good shooter.  I have a couple more of these clean staves that I plan to sinew back when I get around to it.

gutpile

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2021, 08:47:41 am »
I roughed that bow out cleaned it up with a rasp then tilled the whole bow using sandpaper..hahahaha... wood is so soft ,sandpaper was all I needed.. I longstringed bow to about 20 inches before I applied the sinew too... its about 50 at 26.5.. need to put the scale on it .. its short too.. around 58 ntn....gut

Offline eastcreekarchery

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2021, 09:48:23 am »
I guess I'll have to experiment with the cedar I have access to. I think ill do a backing if I do one.

Offline ssrhythm

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2021, 03:41:42 pm »
OK.  When searching the net for "is juniper tea safe to consume,"  I got some info that I'll summarize.  Y'all probably know this, but since I obviously did not, Ill post it up.

True cedars are not going to be an issue for most of us building bows in the US.  The ERC is a juniper.  The Rocky Mtn Juniper is a Juniper.  The berries are actually seed cones that resemble berries. (not sure about that, but that's what this site said)  So, I'm going to assume that the ERC, even though it is a juniper, is weaker in tension than the rocky mountain juniper since all the info read in books and online says that the ERC is weaker in tension than juniper...when I read that ERC or Cedar is weaker bla bla bla than juniper in multiple places, it leads me to believe that there truly is a difference despite them both being junipers and most people are simply not using correct terminology.  An ERC juniper is more of a tree from the get go and an untrained ERC will stand tall like a column...or a tree.  The rocky mtn juniper is more of a bush/shrub that certainly can grow into what most folks would call a tree, but when young and untrained, it will be more bush or shrub like and won't grow tall and columnar-like as the ERC juniper will.  This pretty much fits with what I have noticed in the east and here in Wyoming.  Cedars I know of and can remember in SC and Ohio range from little trees to big trees and bucks love to rub them.  Fifteen to twenty foot tall ERCs growing in the east tend to be taller than wide and a deer can get to their trunks no problem and rub the snot out of them.  The Junipers I encounter in the wild in Wyoming range from little fat bushes to 25 foot tall trees, but the big trees have multiple branches and trunks, and if a deer wanted to rub the trunks, they would have to make their way through a tangle of limbs or rip them off to even get to the trunk.  There are plenty of juniper trees in and around town that look like tall, columnar trees resembling ERC trees in the east, but they are in yards and have obviously been pruned and trained to be the way they are.  If left alone to grow on its own, they are very shrubby when young.  This all seems to fit with what I just read about the differences between ERC juniper and rocky mtn juniper.  With that info combined with what has been said in this thread, I'm going to just assume that while one may be better than the other to carve a bow from, the difference isn't so much that it would stop me from using any type of juniper I could cut that looks like it would make a good bow.  In the same vein, I'm still pretty sure that I'll never take a chance on making an unbacked bow from any juniper species I run across.

Offline airkah

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2021, 10:41:04 pm »
I have exploded an ERC bow and it is not fun... when they blow it is an explosive wood no warning given just gone.
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That was my experience with it. I built one and it was the most violent bow explosion I have ever had by far when it let go 100 arrows in. I'd be too afraid of it to try it again.

bownarra

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Re: Unbacked ERC bow?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2021, 06:48:57 am »
Sinew and juniper is a marriage made in heaven. Just make sure and give it plenty of reflex while drying.......