How much can an arrow paradox ?

[Pat B]

It bends away from the bow because the bow is in the way the other direction. 

[DC]

Then some of them must hit the bow unless, as you say, keep the heavy side toward the bow. It's always said that the arrow should never hit the bow but I've never seen a bow without skid marks on the arrow pass. Haven't seen that many bows but mine though I'm missing something here. Why doesn't the arrow bend up? What happens with a centershot bow? The same forces are in effect, aren't they?

Sorry, I'm in curious mode

[Pat B]

I was being funny. What Art Butner taught me about arrow making is that the stiff side goes against the bow and, if possible, the next stiffest side against the shelf. This usually doesn't come into play though. I don't understand the physics of the arrow launch or flight. Just trying to think about it makes my head hurt.
 In an ideal situation the arrow shouldn't touch the bow once released. I'd say most folks don't understand the dynamics of arrows or arrow flight. They go with what works best for them without taking it to the nth degree, thus skid marks.
...and I'm in ignorance mode...as usual. 

[ssrhythm]

Now you are asking questions I haven’t read any answers to.  Go to YouTube and watch a super slow mo of  archers paradox. Arrow flexes or bends toward the bow/away from bow hand first because the heavy tip is to the left of the nock, and when the string is dropped, it travels toward the bow in a plane that is to the right of the point.  The tips inertia is what it is...and the energy from the bow thru the string is trying to send the nock end of the arrow straight through the center of the handle.for RH shooters...because the nock is to the right of the tip...the first flex will be arrow Boeing to right.  Imagine hammering a long finishing nail into concrete and placing the tip of the nail just a hair left of the head of the nail and giving it a whack,  the nail will bend curving to the right. 

As to why it does not flex up and down...especially since most nocking points are noticeably high...not sure on that one.  It probably has something g to do with lateral forces overcoming vertical forces that involves math no one can comprehend...since it does not happen to a  noticeable  degree, its one of those things I choose to just accept and not think about...too much other clutter in my brain already.

[willie]

Arrow flexes or bends toward the bow/away from bow hand first because the heavy tip is to the left of the nock, and when the string is dropped, it travels toward the bow in a plane that is to the right of the point.

this is what I have seen described in most explanations.  the first flex is inward towards the bow and the next flex is the other way. it is often shown that the second flex needs to be timed such that the arrow clears the handle and poor timing causes the nock or feathers to slap the handle.

Why doesn't the arrow bend up?

it probally does to some lesser degree

What Art Butner taught me about arrow making is that the stiff side goes against the bow

I think it would be an interesting experiment to examine the flexing of a lighter carbon arrow, (with equal stiffness around) shot around a wide arrow pass

 

[DC]

I was being funny.

I knew that, I chuckled but it did lead nicely into my follow up

..the first flex will be arrow Boeing to right.

Is Boeing a Freudian slip
So it pops to the right. That would smack it into the bow. My new thought, spawned by Alan's thoughts on frequency, is that it pops to the right but the bow is still at full draw, there is nothing for the center of the arrow to hit. The spine affects the frequency that the arrow oscillates at. If all is right by the time the center of the arrow reaches the bow it has oscillated to the other side, away from the bow. If the frequency(spine) is wrong the timing will be off and either the front or back of the arrow will hit the bow. Anyone know enough about timing, frequencies, math and arrow lengths to figure out if this is close to being right?

[Pat B]

In some of Art's last cane arrows he scraped the cane on all sides so all sides were the same spine.  If I'm not mistaken the last cane arrows Art sent me were done this way and they shot perfectly. When Art makes arrows for someone he wants to know not only the draw weight but also the draw length, the arrow length, the style of bow,the style of grip and the style of shooting and whether it's center shot or not so the arrows are made using these criteria.

[mmattockx]

Then some of them must hit the bow unless, as you say, keep the heavy side toward the bow. It's always said that the arrow should never hit the bow but I've never seen a bow without skid marks on the arrow pass.

My arrow rests all show wear as well, but I am using arrows that I know are a bit stiff.

Why doesn't the arrow bend up?

Once drawn the nocking point is only very slightly higher than the arrow rest and the force into the arrow is very nearly on plane vertically. This means there will be a tiny amount of vertical flexing, but it is insignificant compared to the horizontal bending that takes place and it gets swallowed up in the horizontal flexing along with the various gyrations of the string that occur with a finger release.

What happens with a centershot bow? The same forces are in effect, aren't they?

Centershot bows still see some arrow flexing (especially with finger release), it is just greatly reduced and arrow spine is not nearly so critical for proper arrow performance.


Mark

[DC]

I know centershot is more forgiving of stiff arrows but is it forgiving of limp arrows?

[willie]

I know centershot is more forgiving of stiff arrows but is it forgiving of limp arrows?

good question. 

Mark makes a good point about the finger release flipping the nock end of the arrow away from the bow upon release, setting up a bend  that appears or acts like the center of the arrow bending into the grip.

Arrow flexes or bends toward the bow/away from bow hand first because the heavy tip is to the left of the nock, and when the string is dropped, it travels toward the bow in a plane that is to the right of the point.

this could be the prevailing condition to initiate bend in the absence of a finger flip.(mechanical release) guess it depends on how much flip the fingers cause.
I think I remember Alan commenting about a bow/arrow combo that effectively requires a mechanical release. maybe some arrows just wont work without a release aid?

[mmattockx]

I know centershot is more forgiving of stiff arrows but is it forgiving of limp arrows?

Not having tested this myself, I can't say for sure. My understanding is that a centershot bow has a wider range of arrow spines that will shoot well. I do know that current competition recurve setups tend towards being a bit weak spined on the theory that any bad shot is more likely to see lower string forces (plucking, collapse on release, etc.) and that the weak arrow will be more forgiving of a soft shot than a stiffer arrow would.


Mark

[Fox]

Who’s “art” pat B? He sounds like a reall good arrow maker... I could use a good arrow maker

[Pat B]

Art Butner(artcher1). Art comes on occasionally as his health allows. I don't think he makes bows or arrows any more.

[Hilongbow]

DC, your skid marks could come from drawing the bow, during that process the arrow is sliding across the shelf and arrow pass

[bassman]

The riser,and the arrow spine controls arrow bend. The deeper the arrow rest the stiffer the arrow can be, or vice versa. I cut my self bow shelves out as close to the center  shot of the riser as I can. I like carbon arrows for target shooting. Carbon arrows are  on the stiff side. I shoot 600 spine full length carbon arrows out of 35 to 40 lb bows, and adjust the point weight  to get a straight shooting bare shaft. PSE has ILf risers out now that shoot through the middle of the riser.