Author Topic: Speed of cast vs draw weight?  (Read 12137 times)

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Offline willie

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2020, 02:15:30 pm »
what were we talking about, (-S

if you compare the stiffnesses (MOE) of your favorite hardwood in the charts posted above, it appears the back stretches more than the belly compresses.  It's the stretching that stores energy. btw. For shagbark hickory, the back is 36% less stiff.

Offline Woody roberts

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2020, 02:16:31 pm »
Ive been back guys. I’m trying to learn but danged if I can follow what you all are saying, much less add something.
Woody

Offline DC

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #77 on: September 03, 2020, 02:19:51 pm »
Ive been back guys. I’m trying to learn but danged if I can follow what you all are saying, much less add something.
Woody
Just keep following on, it's amazing what your brain can pick up without you even being aware of it. Ask questions.

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #78 on: September 03, 2020, 03:31:11 pm »
is it ok if I ask what about sinew on on the back, or is that too far off topic

Offline Woody roberts

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #79 on: September 03, 2020, 04:08:48 pm »
I also would like to know. Saxton Pope liked it. I use artificial sinew for my leather work but I don’t think it will work because of the wax that’s on it.

Offline PatM

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #80 on: September 03, 2020, 04:56:18 pm »
We'll leave that one to the scientists. ;)

Offline mmattockx

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #81 on: September 03, 2020, 04:59:15 pm »
Those two things are the same thing.

Not in my world. IMO, tillering is reading the bend of the limb and adjusting the dimensions to get the bend you want. Making the bow to calculated dimensions is just woodworking. I am OK at the woodworking, very inexperienced at reading the bend.


if you compare the stiffnesses (MOE) of your favorite hardwood in the charts posted above, it appears the back stretches more than the belly compresses.  It's the stretching that stores energy. btw. For shagbark hickory, the back is 36% less stiff.

I'm not understanding how you are determining that? It looks to me like the tensile fiber stress at the elastic limit is 9000psi and the compressive stress at the elastic limit is 4620psi. This is for the air dried shagbark hickory. Am I misreading that?


Ive been back guys. I’m trying to learn but danged if I can follow what you all are saying, much less add something.
Woody

Ask questions and we will do our best to answer them in an understandable fashion.


is it ok if I ask what about sinew on on the back, or is that too far off topic

What about it?


Mark

Offline PatM

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #82 on: September 03, 2020, 05:42:43 pm »


Not in my world. IMO, tillering is reading the bend of the limb and adjusting the dimensions to get the bend you want. Making the bow to calculated dimensions is just woodworking. I am OK at the woodworking, very inexperienced at reading the bend.



   Do your calculated dimensions not indicate a bend?

Offline willie

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #83 on: September 03, 2020, 07:54:12 pm »
Quote
I'm not understanding how you are determining that? It looks to me like the tensile fiber stress at the elastic limit is 9000psi and the compressive stress at the elastic limit is 4620psi. This is for the air dried shagbark hickory. Am I misreading that?

No, you are not misreading the data supplied in the publication. The first scan shows the formula and raw data used for calculating the fiber stress at the elastic limit in the static bend test.  As far as I can tell, the formula presumes the specimen to be homogeneous and having  the neutral axis at the center of the cross section. I believe this is a common practice, as there are few uses for wood in tension near the elastic limit and the difficulty of conducting tension tests along with corresponding compression tests on the same sample, in order to actually determine the location of the NA in each specimen tested in bending

I cannot think of any reason why MOE data obtained from a dedicated compression test should differ from data obtained from a bend test unless there were actual differences between tension MOE and compression MOE.
For the air dried shagbark hickory tested above, the MOE at the elastic limit in bending is 1980 (x1000) vs. 2280 from the dedicated compression test., or 300 lower.

Since the bend test acts equally on the back and the belly of the specimen, and the MOE at the elastic limit represents both tension and compression stiffnesses,  I have assumed it must be an average of the two.  In order for the the bend test average to be 300 lower, the stiffness in tension must be 600 lower, or 1680. This makes tension MOE 76% of compression MOE. or compression MOE 36% higher than tension, depending on your point of reference. My statement of " the back is 36% less stiff.", in the post above is incorrect math. (it implies a difference of 820).
The last two scans are the data and formulas for the compression test


Offline Woody roberts

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #84 on: September 03, 2020, 08:46:03 pm »
I just want to know what wood or combo will get me the fastest arrow speed at the lowest draw weight. Talking straight end longbows and hunting weight arrows. 50 lb is probably about my max.

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #85 on: September 03, 2020, 08:53:25 pm »
 (-P

Offline willie

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #86 on: September 03, 2020, 09:23:10 pm »
I just want to know what wood or combo will get me the fastest arrow speed at the lowest draw weight. Talking straight end longbows and hunting weight arrows. 50 lb is probably about my max.

woody, in the other thread you said,
Quote
I still need practice on my tillering. I’m not ready to build my dream bow yet. ( whatever that is )

I am not sure why you need to be building your dream bow to use osage if it is locally available.  Part of tillering practice is judging bend, but a good part of it is knowing your material and learning how anticipate set or not over stressing the material. For a fast straight stave bow, osage will allow you to keep the tips stiffer while doing more of the bending midlimb, and still have a reasonably shortish bow for hunting. The guy who can help with that design in osage (possibly topped with with a little sinew) is busy eating popcorn right now. :)

Offline Woody roberts

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #87 on: September 03, 2020, 10:21:23 pm »
You guys are a hoot.

Offline DC

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #88 on: September 03, 2020, 10:32:41 pm »
I just want to know what wood or combo will get me the fastest arrow speed at the lowest draw weight. Talking straight end longbows and hunting weight arrows. 50 lb is probably about my max.

Bamboo backed yew :D

Offline Selfbowman

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Re: Speed of cast vs draw weight?
« Reply #89 on: September 03, 2020, 10:35:29 pm »
Willie you are e spot on . I don’t understand the physics and math but if you get a smart guy willing to help the not so smart guy . Well the learning of mass removal and where to remove it is Hugh. I know a few smart guy’s that play along with me and do the math . Then we discuss the why an wherefores. While I understand the needs but not the math. Most helpful to everyone. Arvin
Well I'll say!!  Osage is king!!