Hickory stave questions

[WhistlingBadger]

Hi, all.  Any day now I'm going to start working this hickory stave that Timbo sent me, but I have a few questions before I get going.  I want a reliable, elk-country tough, hard-hitting hunting bow that's smooth and fun to shoot, 50-55# at 27".

Questions:
1.  There are several little knots on the back. (I'll try to put in a couple pictures)  They stick up like little zits. Can I just file these off flat, or do I need to do something special about them?

2.  I really love the look of mollegabet/holmegaard bows, and I have heard great things (mostly on this forum) about how sweetly they shoot.  How tough are they to build?  Should I get a couple pyramid bows under my belt before I try a holmegaard?

3.  My current bows are all around 70-72", but I'd like to make a shorter bow for hunting, maybe 60" or less.  Is that doable with a hickory pyramid or holmegaard bow?  How wide would I need to make it?

I'm sure more questions will occur to me, but that's enough to go on for starters.  Some knot pics:
Knots 1 by Whistling Badger, on Flickr

Knots 2 by Whistling Badger, on Flickr

[gutpile]

if you draw 27 .. then 60" is fine.. leave those bumps alone.. do not file flat.. I'd recurve it.. but thats me.. I'd make it 1 3/4 wide at fades. to midlimb.. then to 1/2 tips..I 'd leave the tips a static... but thats just me...do what you want..its your bow... gut

[bubbles]

I would personally go as wide as I could since you're asking for 27" out of 60" with a stiff handle design. Especially if you go Mollegabet, since that takes away working limb.  I have a tendancy to over-built though.     Give it a good heat treatment while building.  Definitely DON't file the knots flat. 

[willie]

Should I get a couple pyramid bows under my belt before I try a holmegaard

probably a good idea, as tillering a shorter working limb is trickier.

If the crown on your is pronounced, getting full width of a pyramid just outside the fades may be difficult. You might find the bow getting narrower with a sharp edge at the belly as you tiller the thickness. just something to check before you decide on a width profile. Going parallel for a ways before starting your width taper would be the way to go then.

If you like the idea of a stiffer tip, you don't have to go full molly levers, But at 60", and 55# and 27" and stiff tips you are asking a lot.
60" is practically calling for a bendy handle. Kinda a different direction than a pyramid profile.  Elk country tough make me think of some NA designs with wider tips. How wide is your stave?

[WhistlingBadger]

Thanks for the input, guys.  @willie, the stave is 2" wide.  The back is pretty flat; no crown to speak of.  I'll have to look into bendy handle bows; any direction for good info on that?

I'll also have to look into heat treating and recurving.  But since this is only my second bow (the first one broke), I think I'll probably just keep this one simple and try to get a shootable bow.  How about if I go 1 3/4" at the fades and taper to 1/2" at tips?  What's the advantage of keeping it wide to mid-limb?  Am I correct in thinking that a true pyramid profile is going to shoot faster, but a wider profile will put less stress on the limbs?

What if I go a little longer, say 65"?

Regarding the knots, here's a side-on picture of the back.  Some of these stick up 1/8" or more, and I think they're going to get hung up when I'm slipping through the brush.  Should I round them off or knock them down a little bit, somehow?  I've read TBB and a few other sources on working knots on the back, but I'm not clear on what to do with them.

IMG_20200716_171635 by Whistling Badger, on Flickr

Thanks for taking time to answer all my questions!  Much appreciated.

[TimBo]

I'm glad you are getting into the hickory!  With the knots, there is a bump and then the branch (more of a twig).  I carefully remove the branch without getting into the bump, which would violate the grain.  The bump is the grain flowing around the branch, if that makes sense.

[paulsemp]

If you have not made a bunch of bows and want a reliable one I would stick with a longer overbuilt design. A simple d-bow is a reliable design and a good learning tool.

[willie]

I'll have to look into bendy handle bows; any direction for good info on that?

the sudbury bow is hickory, about that wide, a bit longer. and bends slightly or just about bends in the handle. It was most likely what we consider overbuilt today, but you are looking for more poundage than it is estimated to pull. It's a reasonable example of what your stave could do.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sudbury+site:http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihnO3_qdPqAhW-HzQIHUnlA2sQ_AUoA3oECAsQBQ&biw=1467&bih=704

[WhistlingBadger]

I'm glad you are getting into the hickory!  With the knots, there is a bump and then the branch (more of a twig).  I carefully remove the branch without getting into the bump, which would violate the grain.  The bump is the grain flowing around the branch, if that makes sense.

So, can I sand down the "twigs" a bit, as long as I don't get into the underlying grain?

[Hawkdancer]

I use the specs from Paul Comstock's "The Bent Stick" beginner bow, worked nicely.  Over build a bit to be on the safe side.  Brought mine in at 46#@64", and put a rawhide Meare Heath style wrap.  I think it will bring down a deer assuming I make a good shot!.  Good luck, and watch your tiller!
osage may be king, but hickory is fun!
Hawkdancer

[TimBo]

I'm glad you are getting into the hickory!  With the knots, there is a bump and then the branch (more of a twig).  I carefully remove the branch without getting into the bump, which would violate the grain.  The bump is the grain flowing around the branch, if that makes sense.

So, can I sand down the "twigs" a bit, as long as I don't get into the underlying grain?

I wouldn't mind having someone else confirm that idea, but yes - that's what I always do with those.  I was trying to find a stave that wouldn't have any knots in problematic areas, i.e. right on the edge of a limb - just be aware of that when laying out the profile. 

[WhistlingBadger]

OK, thanks Tim.  I'll carefully remove the twigs without damaging the underlying wood.

So...I'll go 65".  Sudbury profile or pyramid?  Decisions, decisions...