What is primitive?

[Rākau]

In lieu of the email/message that has just been sent regarding the question "what is primitive" I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject. I expect that the responses will be many and somewhat varied. I am not asking this to create controversy , but rather to explore the hive mind and to perhaps have my own opinions modified.

Here are my thoughts to get us started.

My view of primitive is pretty much anything made before the advent of iron/steel with some exceptions. As such I think that the majority of the "primitive" bows made now, excepting those made with stone/bone tools and natural materials, including adhesives, and string materials, are not really primitive, but rather made to replicate or emulate primitive artifacts. They maybe be primitive in form and function, but not in construction and realistically sit in what I would call the category of "modern primitive". In the category of "modern primitive" I would place all archery equipment made from natural materials, but made with modern tools (Steel tools, power tools, hand tools etc) and/or modern adhesives and finishes (epoxies, modern varnishes etc). In terms of string material, there is nothing primitive about any modern string. However, in terms of functionality it seems that good linen performs as well as modern materials and so for the sake of safety and because there is no little functional difference apart from durability I would include modern strings in the "modern primitive" category also. Of course this leaves some gaps, such as with the english long bows and the asiatic composites. I do not view these as primitive, as the societies that made them would not be classed this way, I view them as historical or pre-modern.

I am looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.

Cheers,
Zach

[scp]

Good question. If a scholarly answer is expected, we need to hear from archeologists or sociologists. Anyhow, here is my "primitive" answer.

I like to distinguish between primitive "materials" and primitive "skills". Any combination of the two will be reasonable enough to be used for a certain purpose. That means all depends on the purpose of asking the question.

I am more inclined to think in terms of skills and therefore my "primitive" is rather like "homemade by a hobbyist without using any special tools, materials, or technology". Or at least theoretically possible to be made that way.

It would be nice to have the purpose clearly stated.

[jeffp51]

 

[mmattockx]

In the category of "modern primitive" I would place all archery equipment made from natural materials, but made with modern tools (Steel tools, power tools, hand tools etc) and/or modern adhesives and finishes (epoxies, modern varnishes etc).

Modern primitive is close enough for me, but I'm just a heathen who wants to make wood bows in 2020. I am not concerned at all about recreating history or doing things the way they were done in the 1800's.


Mark

[Rākau]

Modern primitive is close enough for me, but I'm just a heathen who wants to make wood bows in 2020. I am not concerned at all about recreating history or doing things the way they were done in the 1800's.


Mark

Yeah I fall into this category too.
I should be clear that this isn't about people having to justify how or why they do things. I don't particularly care what category my bows or anyone else's bows fall under, I just love working with my hands and making stuff and am interested in this question for the sake of a discussion.

[Pat B]

Making what you need with what you have available.

[willie]

It would be nice to have the purpose clearly stated.

The question was first posed by the sponsors of the site, and they have also recently broadened the scope of their definition of primitive in the magazine.

Are we discussing a redefinition of what is allowed to be posted at the site, or adding a trad bow subforum?

[dylanholderman]

Perspective is important as is intent.

The questionnaire that brought this up is coming from a modern perspective with all the modern materials and tools available today, so from that perspective anything made with natural Materials by hand could be called primitive.

And the intent for the questionnaire was to come up with a guideline for class devisions for shoots so all of the questions were geared towards that.

like you I just enjoy making stuff with my hands and most of the things asked in the questionnaire were things I had never really considered or even cared about, still don’t for the most part. 

Perspective I feel is the most important thing to keep in mind any time someone asks “what is primitive”
There is now to make a hard definition for this question because it’s all relative, what is cutting edge equipment and technology to one person is a relic of some begone era to someone else.

[BAfromPA]

 I can't really add much to what you said, Rākau. It seems we agree on pretty much everything with the exception of the English longbow and I only make that distinction due to the fact that the long, narrow and deep bow style is present pretty much around the world.

[NicAzana]

In lieu of the email/message that has just been sent regarding the question "what is primitive" I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on the subject. I expect that the responses will be many and somewhat varied. I am not asking this to create controversy , but rather to explore the hive mind and to perhaps have my own opinions modified.

Here are my thoughts to get us started.

My view of primitive is pretty much anything made before the advent of iron/steel with some exceptions. As such I think that the majority of the "primitive" bows made now, excepting those made with stone/bone tools and natural materials, including adhesives, and string materials, are not really primitive, but rather made to replicate or emulate primitive artifacts. They maybe be primitive in form and function, but not in construction and realistically sit in what I would call the category of "modern primitive". In the category of "modern primitive" I would place all archery equipment made from natural materials, but made with modern tools (Steel tools, power tools, hand tools etc) and/or modern adhesives and finishes (epoxies, modern varnishes etc). In terms of string material, there is nothing primitive about any modern string. However, in terms of functionality it seems that good linen performs as well as modern materials and so for the sake of safety and because there is no little functional difference apart from durability I would include modern strings in the "modern primitive" category also. Of course this leaves some gaps, such as with the english long bows and the asiatic composites. I do not view these as primitive, as the societies that made them would not be classed this way, I view them as historical or pre-modern.

I am looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.

Cheers,
Zach

I was going to write something, but then I realized that I agree a 100 % with everything you said.

Modern primitive is close enough for me, but I'm just a heathen who wants to make wood bows in 2020. I am not concerned at all about recreating history or doing things the way they were done in the 1800's.


Mark

Yeah I fall into this category too.
I should be clear that this isn't about people having to justify how or why they do things. I don't particularly care what category my bows or anyone else's bows fall under, I just love working with my hands and making stuff and am interested in this question for the sake of a discussion.

Also this, a 100 %

For me this forum is for people who like to construct wood-based bows. The reason I think F****glass and C**pound bows should'nt be included, is not about some prejudice against people who like those types of bow, but because they are so different from a construction and materials view that it is in essense, entirely another conversation.

my 2 cents.

[NicAzana]

But if the survey is meant to be about competition categories and rules, and not about a more philosophical distinction between "primitive" and other bows, then I think I'll abstain from answering the survey, as I don't have any strong feelings about that.

[Dances with squirrels]

Intent and perspective is important... as is honesty and full disclosure.

I don't go to shoots or gatherings that use terms like primitive, traditional, or modern for purposes of segregation, so don't have an actual need for those terms.

I don't consider my selfbows primitive because I use modern tools, methods, finish, strings, and conveniences like electricity. Nor do I attempt to adhere to anyone's definition of 'primitive', including my own.

I once made a bow with stone age tools. Started with two rocks and a shed antler, but I did some of the scraping of the limbs with a piece of flint while held in my bench vise under a light, so it wasn't a primitive bow imho. Aside from that, I'm a modern man who learned with books, videos, and the internet, all while well fed, happy, and warm in my modern home. No, to me a primitive bow came by way of primitive means.

But I generally don't need or care to define such things, never have and never will refer to my bows as primitive or modern-primitive. To me it's just a bow. Just archery. Just bow hunting. But if I HAD to define it, then I agree well enough with your first post, Zack. Sounds reasonable.

[Pappy]

Well said D W S, That is why I don't tell folks I make primitive bows, I make wood bows. Lots of people have different ideas what a primitive bow is, I have my own opinion and I don't know many that make what I would call a primitive bow.  yep get out the popcorn.
 Pappy

[HH~]

Just bows and Primitive is just a word.

If I had to guess, when you have a survey and at the end they call it a quiz get ready! It is because someone either wants a change or in this "Cancel Culture" of today Someone wants to take something away from someone else.

Different Orgs have specific time periods and standards for shooting vintage, selfbows or bow types made before 1800 but they never ask "how was it made".

Who gives a chit? Shoot em if you got em!


 Hedge~

[Selfbowman]

As said before by Arvin. I’m old but not Primitive. I respect everyone’s differences otherwise this world would have never got past Primitive. I love and respect the old and the new so much that I tend to bring them together in my bows. But I’m weird.  Arvin