What is primitive?

[Jim Davis]

Among  those who stick to primitive ways, there are some who use stone and bone only tools. I'm not in that camp, but that's what I call primitive archery.

My interest is the late 1920s to early 1930s archery that I read about in old home craftsman books and magazines when I was a kid--just wood for bows and arrows and just  leather for tabs, quivers  and arm  guards. (And no ATVs,     rangefinders, sights, shelves etc. ) I like carriage bows too, and they don't fit in the primitive camp either.

[bradsmith2010]

I dont know,,

[George Tsoukalas]

Primitive is pre contact tools, techniques and materials is the way I look at it.

This has nothing to do with what group you will shoot  in at a shoot.

Jawge

[bassman]

When we go back 40,000  years with the use of the Atlatl which put mankind on the top of the food chain, and man first converting to the bow, and arrow, and what tools, and techniques they used to make their bows, and if you want to use Primitive as a bow  description to me that would be the most authentic , and purist form of a Primitive bow. Even in Otzi's century the metal ax was a tool that was available to make his Yew long bow, so I really don't know what is considered Primitive by the masses today.

[Tommy D]

If a guy with a Compound Bow looks at your bow and says “Man - that thing looks Primitive”... it’s good enough for me!

But the reality is that “Primitive” means something different to everyone so in terms of a category at a shoot, then the parameters are picked so that everyone is competing on a level playing field. So long as the parameters are clearly defined and enforced for everyone then the details aren’t that important.

For me a primitive bow is something you could conceivably make using natural materials and uncomplicated hand tools. So a knife and ax yes ... CNC router ... no! I don’t have a problem with modern tools that help the bowyer - but you have to be able to look at the bow and imagine a man sitting round a fire in the woods could conceivably have made it.

So for example ... a sinew backed Osage recurve would be fine in a primitive class for me... but a bamboo backed trilam board bow would not!

[Hawkdancer]

I fit in there with Jim Davis and Tommy D.  Ol' Glassy One ain't primitive, any wood wood bow from the same era may well be!   A mass produced compound ain't by any means primitive, nor is a synthetic stock on any firearm, especially muzzleloaders!  What hand and power tools you use that cause you to be in control are your choice, using cnc stuff is not primitive, yet!  I assure you that many items we consider primitive were made using the latest techniques available that made the job easier.  North American Native and First Nations people were exposed to new ways and materials when the white man landed on their territories, they adopted many of the new things rather quickly.
Hawkdancer

[Rākau]

Ah this makes a little more sense now. I dd not realise that the survey potentially had a hidden (or not hidden, I just didn't pick up on it) motive regarding bow classes for competitions. I thought it was just to capture people's opinions about the subject for the sake of discussion.

Loving the discussion so far and the various points that people have brought up.

Intent and perspective is important... as is honesty and full disclosure.

I don't go to shoots or gatherings that use terms like primitive, traditional, or modern for purposes of segregation, so don't have an actual need for those terms.

I don't consider my selfbows primitive because I use modern tools, methods, finish, strings, and conveniences like electricity. Nor do I attempt to adhere to anyone's definition of 'primitive', including my own.

I once made a bow with stone age tools. Started with two rocks and a shed antler, but I did some of the scraping of the limbs with a piece of flint while held in my bench vise under a light, so it wasn't a primitive bow imho. Aside from that, I'm a modern man who learned with books, videos, and the internet, all while well fed, happy, and warm in my modern home. No, to me a primitive bow came by way of primitive means.

But I generally don't need or care to define such things, never have and never will refer to my bows as primitive or modern-primitive. To me it's just a bow. Just archery. Just bow hunting. But if I HAD to define it, then I agree well enough with your first post, Zack. Sounds reasonable.

Well said D W S, That is why I don't tell folks I make primitive bows, I make wood bows. Lots of people have different ideas what a primitive bow is, I have my own opinion and I don't know many that make what I would call a primitive bow.  yep get out the popcorn.
 Pappy

I think you captured my sentiments here D W S and Pappy. Scrap all that hoo haa about "modern primitive". I just like making wood based bows supplemented with various natural materials (rawhide, sinew, skin, bone, antler, horn etc) and a few synthetics too (strings, glues and finishes) using whatever tools I have on hand to get the job done.

[Eric Krewson]

Make a bow that fits your personality, shoot it and enjoy it, don't worry about what someone else might choose to make.

[HH~]

Rakau

Yer sniffin it out now! I can usually sniff out the terd in the punch bowl several football fields away! Kept me and a bunch raving mad Rangers alive in a bunch chitholes around the world. its no secret when yer in the valley of 1000 insurgents and they fly you in Lobster and Ribeye steaks form 15,000 air miles its almost ironclad that some of ya are not coming out alive. Cant send Joe home without some Maine in his gut.
Yep these are things you can learn at Fordem or Columbia U

I can almost lay odds that anything called a survey then revealed as a quiz is without question of this new culture to modify, take  something away or classify a segment or group as outside their norm.

Hedge~

[wstanley]

I see it as any pre industrial revolution culture and using/making the tools they would be using from that time. What separates the archer/Bowyer from today is we make/shoot bows because we like it. The historical bowyer archer did it for their survival. You can replicate the material - not the mind-frame of the historical bowyer/archer. But i find in fascinating to TRY and see how/ what a Comanche (inset any culture here) kid went through to become a skilled archer and bowyer.

[wstanley]

I’m not sure why people get so offended by asking about  primitive bows. It’s fine you don’t care about using primitive tools or classifying this as that or that as this. This website/magazine is called PRIMITIVE ARCHER, where else can those who do find it interesting discuss this??? Am I on the wrong website??? Golly if you don’t find the topic enjoyable the don’t the join the discussion.

[willie]

I think you are in the right place wstanley. I think we have a lot to learn from our ancestors. Re-discovering different modes of thinking that may have been lost along the way to our present state of affairs might be a worthwhile endeavor. The "modern" sometimes seem too quick to dismiss the widsom of the past.

[Rākau]

I’m not sure why people get so offended by asking about  primitive bows. . .

I'm not sure who is offended by the discussion, perhaps i came across wrong. I am fascinated by pre industrial cultures and pretty much any discussion related to them, in particular the use and manufacture of ranged weapons. When I said I don't care how other people made them I did not mean that I don't care about how ancient peoples came upon their designs etc. I was more refering to how people today choose to make their gear. perhaps I should have said that I find all methods of manufacture interesting and worth while.

I think we have much to learn from those who came before us, at the very least because it is fascinating.

Anyway, the tone of this thread has gone a bit south. lets cut it of here shall we.

Cheers,
Zach

[wstanley]

Offended is not the correct term to use. Your right.  The responses which imply  who cares I ffind funny is all. I was not referring to you or your chosen topic. Sometimes I just need to 

[JackCrafty]

When I took the survey, it was the materials that made the difference between modern and primitive.

For me, "primitive" means using all-natural materials for the bow, glue, backing, finish, and string. The tools don't matter and the shape of the bow doesn't matter.