Author Topic: Limb twist when using lumber for ELB profile?  (Read 1022 times)

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Offline Flntknp17

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Limb twist when using lumber for ELB profile?
« on: June 05, 2020, 12:13:51 pm »
All,

I just want to preface this by saying that I have made 100+ bows and haven't had a failure in a long time so I feel like I generally know what I'm doing as far as making flat bows and backed flat bows, both stave and lumber.  I really wanted to make a narrower profile bow this spring and have now had two consecutive failures.  Neither of them broke, but neither of them will stay strung!  When I string them up, one or both limbs twist in the same manner as a mis-aligned recurve and sheds the string.  One was boo, maple, sapele.  The other was/is boo, maple, osage.  All of the woods were milled from lumber.  Is there some trick to making a narrow profile bow out of lumber?  I'm perplexed,  I've even tried flattening the belly on the osage one.....and it still twists violently.  These bows both had some reflex glued in; maybe that is the issue?  They are both dead straight when unbraced.  I'm just a little confused since I have never experienced this sort of limb twist on any of the other 50+ board bows I have made, but admittedly, they were all 1.5" wide or more.  It sorta makes sense to me that lumber lams could be inclined to have a net twist moment since the grain is not going to be necessarily parallel to the bow in the same way it would be with a stave bow. 

Any thoughts are appreciated.  I'm moving on to other projects for a while.....

Thanks!

Matt


Offline mmattockx

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Re: Limb twist when using lumber for ELB profile?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2020, 12:29:11 pm »
What does the grain look like? Flat cut, quarter sawn, bias cut, something else?

This is of interest to me because both my first two bows had some twist when strung/drawn but were straight when unstrung and I would like to be able to avoid or correct this as well.


Mark

Offline BAfromPA

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Re: Limb twist when using lumber for ELB profile?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2020, 12:50:46 pm »
Did you follow (or come close to) the ELB 'ideal ratio' of 5/8 the width is equal to the depth? If it is narrower than it is thick it will want to twist. Unless all three lams had grain orienting the same way I don't think that would be the issue. Take this all with a grain of salt though as I don't make lam bows.

Offline Pat B

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Re: Limb twist when using lumber for ELB profile?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2020, 02:22:12 pm »
Pics?
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

Offline willie

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Re: Limb twist when using lumber for ELB profile?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2020, 02:40:16 pm »
Quote
These bows both had some reflex glued in; maybe that is the issue?

It might well be if there was too much reflex or the limb was not wide enough.
can you quantify how much reflex relative to width? for instance, twice as much reflex as limb width? and maybe what ratios have worked for you in the past?

Offline Tommy D

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Re: Limb twist when using lumber for ELB profile?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2020, 03:16:45 pm »
There was a post somewhere about how the inner tube wrapping in only one direction seemed to be inducing a twist in the guys bows... and others chimed in and suggested wrapping both ways if you are using inner tube to do your laminating.

Offline Hamish

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Re: Limb twist when using lumber for ELB profile?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2020, 05:40:24 pm »
I usually avoid a straight taper from the handle to the tips on the back. Many bows were historically made this way successfully, but it gets a little too risky using a wood like Ipe .  Instead I keep the middle section the max width for around 12". I have the tips around 3/8", but I measure in 6-8 " and keep this spot wider than a straight handle to tip taper. On a 1" wide bow I might use 3/4" width 8" out from the tip.
On a 3/4" narrow bow I might have it  5/8 or 1/2" wide .

I think Bowanarra mentioned in another recent post he does something similar to this too, with his layout.

Even so, with these narrow bows, especially when reflexed, centreline layout is crucial. You need to  then  get the bow to a decent brace height other wise the bow will want to flip itself inside out and de string itself.

At these early stages a narrow bow may actually pull dramatically to one side. You have to have gotten the tiller as good as you can, then you need to pull the bow at short draws, to the opposite side to train the wood to bend how you want it too.
Its crucial that you don't pull it back to far. Be aware the bow can also take set in a side to side orientation as well, as the regular string follow direction.
 Now you have gotten the bow hopefully as good as you can, by training. If it still shows a list in one or both limbs you can only correct this by careful removal of wood. This part gets tricky, and as a whole subject of its own. I have talked about how to do it in earlier posts, so if you do a search on twisting bows, sideways twist you might be able to find it.

You want to do as much removal correction as you can without pulling it too far otherwise you won't be able to fully remove the sideways set.

Offline Flntknp17

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Re: Limb twist when using lumber for ELB profile?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2020, 07:28:15 pm »
I think Willie probably nailed it.....I typically use about 3” of reflex when I glue up a bamboo backed flat bow.....and I used the same form.  I shouldn’t have added so much reflex.  Better luck next time I suppose. 

Matt

Offline Del the cat

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Re: Limb twist when using lumber for ELB profile?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2020, 02:46:14 am »
Reflex, and ELB is not a good mix.
The narrower you get the twitchier they become. Also need to get to full brace quickly if there is any reflex. Leave it a tad wide (especially at the tips) until it's part tillered, (say coming back 20") that allows string line adjustment to stop it going sideways.
Also keep the profile rectangular until it's coming back a good way, then tiller by removing the corners from the belly.
Mind, most of my experience is with natural staves or simple backed timber rather than lumber.
Del
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