Author Topic: Why not pinch grip??  (Read 4805 times)

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Offline EdwardS

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2020, 08:11:22 pm »
Traxx, yes it's just as lethal.  From my experience you get less string torque on release, so you have to learn to compensate.  After that, it's no different from any other release and can be used on any bow.  I don't tend to use it on centershot bows because of torque compensation (something that just takes practice to deal with, but as I don't own a centershot bow I can't practice it) but there's nothing that would prevent you from doing so.

As to the lethality against the Spaniards, let me talk for a minute about Pop's bow.  He had a bow that was either captured during the Seminole War or more likely was made by a refugee that came south with the Red Sticks.  It was (as I remember) about 68" ntn, made of bald cypress with a sinew backing.  It was scalloped on both sides with the traditional diamond nocks of the Southeastern tribes.  It had a gut string and was covered with what looked like thin deer rawhide.  Traditional "Cherokee" D bow profile, bend through the handle.  Catfish skin handle.  I think that was added later.

That bow must have drawn 80-90#, based on how hard it was to draw against my at the time 70-75# draw.  It did that at the chest draw, at full draw it certainly was heavier.  That's plenty sufficient to punch through Spanish armor, never mind if you hit an unarmored area, which they were more than skilled enough to do.  I used to shoot at the 80-90# mark and I could get near full penetration on a cinder block.  That's not advised, of course.  It could shoot through a car door up to the fletching.  I can no longer do that, but the things I wrecked shooting straight through my styrofoam block targets caused me to think long and hard about how strong they were in battle.  Add to that that the cane arrows would often shatter on impact and you have a recipe for festering wounds.  At those weights the horses weren't safe either.

Many arrows had fire-hardened wood heads.  Those were strong enough to pierce the plate armor, and the shaft breaking afterwards would have left the head in place.  Flint or obsidian would shatter, causing a multitude of cuts and bone would stay in the wound like wood.  (I know I owe everyone a bone arrowhead how-to, but I'm just now getting to be active outside again.) 

People underestimate the power of bows routinely.  I've seen a 25 pound bow get a double passthrough on a deer with good shot placement and shaving sharp head.  To put things in context, on TradGang a person posted an elephant hunt they had been on.  A 90# trad bow was enough to pass through and break a rib on the opposite side, which was lethal to the elephant.  The Ashby report also shows what arrows can do against a multitude of very large game mammals.  60# has been enough with the proper head choice to kill an alligator by entering the brain cavity.

The grip is not what kills, it is the shot placement.  In that Natives excelled.  They lived as I did with the bow, but I had to go to school and they didn't.  If I had grown up like them, maybe I would have been as good as Pop.  But as to whether they took out the Spaniards like they said they did, I believe it's completely possible.

Makes me want to go look at the cypress boards in Flomaton.

Offline Traxx

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2020, 09:06:43 pm »
EdwardS....

You wouldnt happen to know,Bob Osceola would you???...He has told me many different stories concerning the "Seminole"......Bobs Grandfather was Howard Hills Guide when he hunted the swamps down there..

Offline EdwardS

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2020, 09:37:04 pm »
I do not, unfortunately.  I'm more closely related to the Poarch Creek, we come from Escambia County AL and surrounding.  Pop's wife was from further down, but she passed while I was in high school.  Pop didn't pass til I was 32.  Gramps passed the same year.

My band (I'm Vhvlvkvlke, or Sweet Potato Clan) were Mvskoke mine slaves originally.  Due to an agreement that was (unilaterally) made around the time of the Trail of Tears and the Dawes rolls, Mvskoke freedmen could not be counted as official Native Americans.  We could be Black or we could just exist without.  The agreement is an in perpetuity one, so their descendants cannot join either.  We retained some of our language, and our traditions, but legislation against our religion, our ways, and our language and having to hide in plain sight messed up a lot of stuff.  Pop never voted, even after Natives got the right to vote in the 60s.  Never trusted the system.  We'd only speak Mvskoke in the woods.  I'm not very good at it at all.  Too little exposure.

We moved up around the Jasper AL area, which is where I was born.  I've moved back to Escambia Co, just five minutes from Burnt Corn Creek.  I have a little informal contact with the Poarch Creek.  It's an issue where they know that we're long lost cousins, but they can't recognize us legally.  There's some information on it on the Mvskoke page on Wikipedia (not sure if I can link a non-sales site.)  It's an issue when you have Native blood, Native knowledge, Native traditions (and Native diseases) but due to white people gatekeeping who's Native I at this point will never get my Native ID card or my Native American Artist's number.  We're not dogs or horses, we don't need a pedigree.

I'm sorry about that aside, but it explains where I got the knowledge of archery and Mvskoke culture.  I spend a lot of time trying to record what traditions I can find so they don't die out.  With my being disabled, I have a lot of time to dedicate to it.  Gives me a lot of time to shoot, at least.

Offline Traxx

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2020, 10:04:24 pm »
Bob is  Miccosukee of the Panther Clan..He used to Go By Kowechobe on this forum..Unfortunately,,Bob suffered a bad Stroke a couple years ago,and we havent talked in a while..His daughter called to tell me of it as it seems he is non verbal..Bob was an MD and was of great help to my wife,in some of her medical troubles..

Offline willie

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Re: Why not pinch grip??
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2020, 01:58:17 am »
Quote
That's plenty sufficient to punch through Spanish armor

Interesting account, Edward.Thanks.

It was my impression from reading Desotos account of his expedition thru the south. that amour for the grunts was cotton or leather padding. this was abandoned by some as it was unbearably hot in the summer weather. Chain mail armor was used by mainly by the officers and preferred as it was cooler to wear, that is, until their assailants learned that cane arrows without an arrowhead split and penetrated around the chain links.