Author Topic: Perry Reflex  (Read 6304 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline bradsmith2010

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,187
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2019, 12:56:28 pm »
I  think the bow with the perry reflex would have less mass ,, and give it an advantage over a bow with just steamed in relfex,,

Offline SLIMBOB

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,759
  • Deplorable Slim
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2019, 01:01:32 pm »
With my admittedly limited experience with this, something was certainly taking place. Both bows were heavier than expected draw weight. I read that it increases the stored energy by 10%. Some of that should translate to arrow speed. If it’s only 5% then 285 pushes to near 300. I don’t own a chronograph. I am wanting to know if you can document any improvement.
Liberty, In God We Trust, E Pluribus Unum.  Distinctly American Values.

Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,228
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2019, 05:43:33 pm »
I just find it hard to grasp how something that is happening at the neutral zone has any effect at the surface. It would seem to me that any internal tensions would cancel each other.

the wood is still working in shear closer to the middle, so it might help.  slimbobs experience with breaking backs would seem to indicate something like boo would be a good choice, although I think Steves observation that "strong backing can mask a lot of set" (in the original post) would dictate a belly wood with superior compression qualities also.

Maybe yew for a belly? but designing/tillering so that the belly does not even come close to actually developing an apparent set?

Offline PatM

  • Member
  • Posts: 6,737
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2019, 05:58:49 pm »
Steamed in reflex doesn't really seem to hold.

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,396
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2019, 06:46:32 pm »
"strong backing can mask a lot of set"

Sometimes I would settle for "masking" ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline DC

  • Member
  • Posts: 10,396
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2019, 06:51:14 pm »
Steamed in reflex doesn't really seem to hold.

Yeah, steam is handy for getting the wood into position though. I have tried a few times to reflex a bow with just dry heat and had very little success. Use steam to get it to where you want and then heat it.

Offline bradsmith2010

  • Member
  • Posts: 5,187
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2019, 07:21:13 pm »
Ok sorry I didn't mean steam :)

Offline Marc St Louis

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • Posts: 7,877
  • Keep it flexible
    • Marc's Bows and Arrows
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2019, 07:59:07 pm »
Dry-heat including heat-treating when reflexing before glue-up will produce much better results
Home of heat-treating, Corbeil, On.  Canada

Marc@Ironwoodbowyer.com

Offline avcase

  • Member
  • Posts: 485
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2019, 01:16:28 am »
I just find it hard to grasp how something that is happening at the neutral zone has any effect at the surface. It would seem to me that any internal tensions would cancel each other.

Clarence Hickman went into a detailed explanation of how this can be used in a bow in a mid-1930’s article on pages 55-59 of Archery, The Technical Side.  Those pages are not the easiest read, but it is quite accurate.  It even gets into how much benefit is possible and how to maximize it.  Of course it wasn’t called Perry Reflex back in the 1930’s.  It was known as “pre-stressing”, and has been used as a way to maximize strength of a composite beam or structure when loaded in one particular direction.

Alan

Offline Stick Bender

  • Member
  • Posts: 2,003
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2019, 06:00:29 am »
Heat treating reflexing the core makes the most sense out every thing I have herd here  because I still believe The bow that holds its profile (most reflex) is going to be a good performer & with the heat treated core making the belly denser & stressing the back the most with out breaking makes the most of the material used, its just comon sense over the magic of PR to me , Im not one to shun theory but I will take hands on exsperience by respected bowyers over theory any day !
If you fear failure you will never Try !

Offline scp

  • Member
  • Posts: 660
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2019, 12:18:23 pm »
I just find it hard to grasp how something that is happening at the neutral zone has any effect at the surface. It would seem to me that any internal tensions would cancel each other.

Clarence Hickman went into a detailed explanation of how this can be used in a bow in a mid-1930’s article on pages 55-59 of Archery, The Technical Side.  Those pages are not the easiest read, but it is quite accurate.  It even gets into how much benefit is possible and how to maximize it.  Of course it wasn’t called Perry Reflex back in the 1930’s.  It was known as “pre-stressing”, and has been used as a way to maximize strength of a composite beam or structure when loaded in one particular direction.
Alan

All my "primitive" mind can think of is the case of "pre-stressed" concrete beams. What is stressed in that case is the steel cable. It is using the tension strength of the cable inside. In "pre-stressed" bow limbs, it would be the glue/epoxy that is used to hold the strength. If we just glue the slats flat, we will be using just the normal stress on the glue. But if we use the glue to hold the slats in the reflexed shape, we will be using the stressed tension strength of the glue/epoxy. That would be like inserting a more tention-strong material inside the bow limb, just like the pre-streesed steel cable. Basically we are changing the composition of the bow limb in the process. Just a thought. But using different glues and causing failures in the glueline might be a useful experiment. Do we have a glue that has the less tension strength than the wood?

Offline avcase

  • Member
  • Posts: 485
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2019, 04:25:14 pm »

All my "primitive" mind can think of is the case of "pre-stressed" concrete beams. What is stressed in that case is the steel cable. It is using the tension strength of the cable inside. In "pre-stressed" bow limbs, it would be the glue/epoxy that is used to hold the strength. If we just glue the slats flat, we will be using just the normal stress on the glue. But if we use the glue to hold the slats in the reflexed shape, we will be using the stressed tension strength of the glue/epoxy. That would be like inserting a more tention-strong material inside the bow limb, just like the pre-streesed steel cable. Basically we are changing the composition of the bow limb in the process. Just a thought. But using different glues and causing failures in the glueline might be a useful experiment. Do we have a glue that has the less tension strength than the wood?

The glue line is holding a shear force between the laminates, but this force is distributed over the entire surface area of contact between the laminates.  Most glues should be more than able to hold this without issue, unless the glue bond is very marginal to begin with.

In Hickman’s article, he glued up two straight laminates into a high degree of reflex to make each bow limb, and then he mounted these limbs on a handle that held the limbs in a large degree of deflex so the tips were not so far forward of the bow handle.  By doing this, bracing the bow actually relieved the glued-in stress on the bow limb laminates. The result is a wood bow that can be kept strung all the time, and drawn further than a conventional design would normally allow. It was a pretty clever design.

I did some experiments with this a number of years ago. By varying the ratio of thickness of the two laminates, you can play all sorts of games. For example, you can offset excess tensile strength of a tensile-strong wood to provide relief on the compression side.

Alan


Offline willie

  • Member
  • Posts: 3,228
Re: Perry Reflex
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2019, 04:53:04 pm »
Quote
By varying the ratio of thickness of the two laminates, you can play all sorts of games. For example, you can offset excess tensile strength of a tensile-strong wood to provide relief on the compression side.

If I recall correctly.  Dan (in a follow up post maybe at PP, mentioned good results with 1/3 back lam : 2/3 belly lam.
that might have been for a hickory backed hickory though