Author Topic: Hide glue for backings - An experiment  (Read 6603 times)

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Offline Halfbow

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Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« on: October 14, 2019, 05:50:41 pm »
I was thinking about the glues people use to sinew bows. Hide glue is widely regarded as the best glue for it, and there are two main reasons usually given:

1. It's made of basically the same stuff as sinew, so it combines with it and forms a strong matrix of cohesive material.
2. It shrinks when it dries and pulls the bow in to reflex, pretensioning the back.

But a number of people have tried with something like Titebond III for its waterproof qualities, and most seem to report that it works fine and they get a good bow out of it.

If Titebond III soaks in and adheres well enough, why does the cohesive matrix matter? And if you manually add reflex while you're gluing up, why does the shrinking induced reflex matter?

I hypothesized there is a 3rd reason hide glue is the best. So I decided to do an experiment. I used Knox gelatin glue instead of hide glue, as its easier for me to obtain, but the results should be about the same. It's all fairly unscientific, but I think you guys might find the results interesting.

I got 2 equal lengths of flax string. Soaked them in water, squeezed out the water, soaked one in Titebond III and the other in Knox glue, then squeezed out the excess glue. I hung them up to dry and twisted them up with themselves.



The dark one is Knox glue, the light one is Titebond III (the color difference is only from the wet glues).

They both took 2 days to dry and to stop losing weight. I waited 5 days just to be sure. They had hardened and stiffened nicely, and were both a lot like long twigs. Before the glue, each string weighed 3g. After the glue dried, the Titebond III string weighed 8g, and the Knox string weighed 11g. So Knox is considerably heavier, which is bad.

However... here are some bend tests. The first bend in the video is the first bend ever. Hide glue is on top.

https://imgur.com/a/JaBN0i5

I was just eyeballing the amount of bend, trying to bend them each equally progressively more each time. I hope the difference in spring back comes through in the video, it was quite evident in person. But what you can't see is how much stiffer the Knox string was. It took considerably more force to bend. And note the difference in the set they took. In light of this, I will be using hide glue for any backing with which the glue soaks in and makes up a significant part of its structure (sinew, paper, cloth, cordage, plant fibers). Mechanically, using Titebond III seems rather like using perpetually green wood as a backing.



Offline willie

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2019, 08:31:08 pm »
interesting experiment halfbow there have been similar experiments in the past (I think).

you are probably correct that a PVA glue could offer much in stiffness in thicker sections. Makes me wonder about weldwood (ureaformaldehyde wood glue) with a plant fiber?

Offline Pat B

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2019, 09:40:03 pm »
Wouldn't Weldwood be too brittle...or would it? I've used it on a few backed bows and I really like it but the seasoned glue seems pretty hard and brittle. Just wondering.
Make the most of all that comes and the least of all that goes!    Pat Brennan  Brevard, NC

gutpile

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2019, 12:26:46 pm »
the problem with using titebond for sinew backing is it dries too fast for the sinew to really do its magic... IMO..if I go to the trouble to sinew a bow I'm gonna get all I can out of it and sinew and hide glue do just that... gut

Offline Halfbow

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2019, 02:23:07 pm »
If this sort of test has been done before I'd be really interested to see, if anyone can dig up a link. My searching was unsuccessful. And yeah I'd like to see this sort of test done with more glues. I've never worked with Weldwood but it seems interesting. A chunk of cured hide glue is super hard too, so maybe it would work well?

Maybe the difference I'm showing matters less with backings, because the backing is only under tension? In my test the strings are feeling both compression and tension, so possibly all I'm showing is that Knox glue is better at compression than Titebond III. And we don't need to care about compressive strength for backings? I'm not sure

But... it still seems to me that this difference in springiness has got to make a difference for bows. The hide glue really impressed me. When bending the strings by hand, the difference in feeling was stark. I wouldn't expect to get that much spring from any stick of wood. It actually has me wondering about a bow made out of just a bunch of string and hide glue... Probably terrible, but maybe an experiment for the future. :p

Offline gfugal

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2019, 02:32:53 pm »
the problem with using titebond for sinew backing is it dries too fast for the sinew to really do its magic... IMO..if I go to the trouble to sinew a bow I'm gonna get all I can out of it and sinew and hide glue do just that... gut
+1
Greg,
No risk, no gain. Expand the mold and try new things.

Offline sleek

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2019, 02:40:50 pm »
If this sort of test has been done before I'd be really interested to see, if anyone can dig up a link. My searching was unsuccessful. And yeah I'd like to see this sort of test done with more glues. I've never worked with Weldwood but it seems interesting. A chunk of cured hide glue is super hard too, so maybe it would work well?

Maybe the difference I'm showing matters less with backings, because the backing is only under tension? In my test the strings are feeling both compression and tension, so possibly all I'm showing is that Knox glue is better at compression than Titebond III. And we don't need to care about compressive strength for backings? I'm not sure

But... it still seems to me that this difference in springiness has got to make a difference for bows. The hide glue really impressed me. When bending the strings by hand, the difference in feeling was stark. I wouldn't expect to get that much spring from any stick of wood. It actually has me wondering about a bow made out of just a bunch of string and hide glue... Probably terrible, but maybe an experiment for the future. :p


You aren't crazy, and I am going to be doing a very similar thing with my 26 inch long pony tail I just cut off. I will be experimenting first with my 8 inch beard I also recently cut and saved for this purpose. 

If you are crazy, at least youn arent alone....
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline Halfbow

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2019, 03:47:04 pm »
You aren't crazy, and I am going to be doing a very similar thing with my 26 inch long pony tail I just cut off. I will be experimenting first with my 8 inch beard I also recently cut and saved for this purpose. 

If you are crazy, at least youn arent alone....

Haha well it's good to be crazy with company, I look forward to hearing more about that. Maybe your hair will become the most sought after bow material in the land.

Offline WhistlingBadger

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2019, 04:22:39 pm »
Interesting, Halfbow.  Thanks for sharing.
T
Thomas
Lander, Wyoming
"The trail is the thing, not the end of the trail.
Travel too fast, and you miss all you are traveling for."
~Louis L'Amour

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2019, 11:05:45 am »
Would the weight of the dry hide glue,.,depend on how u mix it,,....thick or thin

Offline Badger

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2019, 11:22:07 am »
  The hide glue does a much better job of allowing the inner parts of the sinew to day out. The tightbond may be sealing some of the moisture inside of it.

Offline SLIMBOB

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2019, 12:19:07 pm »
Dick Baugh did some testing on this.  Interesting read.  You can Google  "Secrets of Sinew Revealed" with his name.
Liberty, In God We Trust, E Pluribus Unum.  Distinctly American Values.

Offline Halfbow

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2019, 12:46:51 pm »
Would the weight of the dry hide glue,.,depend on how u mix it,,....thick or thin

Yep, as well as how wet the fibers were when you put them in the glue, and how well you squeeze out the excess glue. Many variables here. I think most of them can be basically boiled down to, how many solids are are you leaving to dry. I had the Knox glue at about as thick as maple syrup at 130f. From there I tried to keep it the same between the Knox and the Titebond. Same damp fibers, same level of squeezing out the excess glue. My goal was a typical use scenario, and I did what felt right to me for a bow backing.

The hide glue does a much better job of allowing the inner parts of the sinew to day out. The tightbond may be sealing some of the moisture inside of it.

Would the same be true for my wet flax fibers here? Perhaps that's part of the reason the Titebond had so much less spring. However, with the Titebond ending up weighing so much less, I imagine the effect can't have been too pronounced.

Offline sleek

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2019, 12:55:11 pm »
Tight bond is a plastic, is known to flex with what's called glue creep. It's part of the features of the glue. Hide glue hardens up much more and doesn't have the flex that tight bond does. These lies the difference.
Tread softly and carry a bent stick.

Dont seek your happiness through the approval of others

Offline bradsmith2010

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Re: Hide glue for backings - An experiment
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2019, 03:44:59 pm »
ok you guys knew this was coming,, which one is gonna shoot faster,, I mean more effeciently (lol)