Bowstring loops question and some talk

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I am making a linen flemish twist bowstring. My bow (my first one) will have a draw weight of 40 pounds. My linen is 3 ply yarn that breaks at ~8.8 pounds To get the desired strength, I made 2 2-ply cords out of 12 strands (6 per bundle). So the finished bowstring will be a complex cord and consist of 24 strands, which amounts to 211 pounds of strength. Now... when I fold the twisted cordage at the end to form a loop and start twisting further (to make a bigger diameter section of string before a loop), the ends of the string just slip out (easily pulled out by the loop), the reason being, IMO, insufficient twisting. I hope you can understand what I mean. I tried to twist it more tightly 4 separate times, but I couldn't grip 2 cords with 2 fingers (they don't wrap around each other). This is my third bowstring that I make, the previous two failed at the served flemish loop (not IN the loop, but some inches before, perhaps at the end of the "thick" section). They have been made of very low quality commercial twine (made out of uneven strings) (the first is jute, the second is linen/hemp mix). My new yarn is high quality. Now I want to say that this is really frustrating for me and my fingers are sore from twisting. I don't know how I am not giving up (haven't even had a thought) the whole bowmaking adventure, but the bow is almost ready (will be able to finish it in the weekend). Looks like this bow "addiction" is real . I feel frustration from doing this, but I just can't let it go! A typical characteristic of an addiction!

I consider using a bowline knot instead of a flemish twist loop. I can adjust it exactly to the length I need, unlike timber hitch. So I used it on previous bowstrings. But knots weaken strings. And the previous bowstrings broke at the "flemish loop"!

Will the bowstring with bowlines at each end be suitable, or maybe some other loop knots?

[DC]

I don't know but I suspect you're twisting it wrong. Did you wax the strands? Watch this vid and see if it helps
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C07evRZT_PQ&feature=youtu.be

This one is good too. He does the twisting in a different manner but the end result is the same. He actually splices the second loop rather than twisting it so keep that in mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfyPOikbBvA

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DC,

Thanks for the videos. I waxed the strands heavily with paraffin wax from a candle (this and previous ones). I followed the instruction from Sam Harper's website and I see Clay Hayes doing it the same. My previous bowstrings were made of bundles, not thick cords, and the loops went out fine, just like in the second video. But the third one has one change: I had to twist the two cords (one in each finger) not away from me, but towards me, as twisting away resulted in untwisting of the cords.

[Deerhunter21]

I tried candle wax and it doesn't work as well. the wax has to be soft and a little sticky at room temperature, but not so much that it will melt in the heat of the outdoors.

[DC]

DC,

Thanks for the videos. I waxed the strands heavily with paraffin wax from a candle (this and previous ones). I followed the instruction from Sam Harper's website and I see Clay Hayes doing it the same. My previous bowstrings were made of bundles, not thick cords, and the loops went out fine, just like in the second video. But the third one has one change: I had to twist the two cords (one in each finger) not away from me, but towards me, as twisting away resulted in untwisting of the cords.

Doing this is almost impossible to explain in words. I've shown a couple of people how to do this that thought they were following the videos exactly and they just weren't doing it right. I'm not sure what you mean by thick cords. Anything you are twisting should not already be twisted. DH is right candle wax just kind of crumbles. If you have to use straight wax, bees wax is what to choose. The wax should have some resin(pitch) in it so it's a bit sticky.
Can you post some pictures of your attempts?

PS I just noticed that you are using linen. I've never used linen so there may be some differences. Maybe someone else will chime in. Sorry about that.

[Strichev]

Beesewax works great with linen. In my experience a linen string should be harder to pull apart like that, UHWPE and suchlike are extemely slippery in comparison. My first linen string string snapped at the bowyer's knot and now I avoid using it. Linen strings get quite thick so I use three ply flemish twist. The resulting string is much rounder in cross section and looks better. Regarding strength - I don't know.

Maybe you don't have enough length doubling back after the loop?

I've had some problems twisting the thick section after the loop as the bundles of strands doubling back, coming out of the top of the loop were twisted themselves (the ones that pull out on your string) and wouldn't twist together with the main string. Make sure that they're not twisted on their own like a cable but insted nicely parallel, blended with the main, long, part of the string, held together by beesewax. That way, when you actually twist the short part coming out of the loop together with the long section of the string, it forms a nice round twisted bundle you can then wrap around the other bundle like normal.

I usually hook the loop on something so that I can use both hands to twist the thicker section, especially right after the loop, as tight as possible.

As DC said, anything you're twisting shouldn't be twisted before. Indeed this is hard to put into words, in doing so we risk making no sense whatosever. I hope this wasn't too confusing and makes some sense.

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DC,

I'm not sure how the photographs of the process could help. Perhaps a video should do, but I do not see the point, as the quality will be bad. You've heard it already, but I say for REAL: I SWEAR I am doing everything correctly, as 2 previous loops held together and did not unravel. I just can't twist the 2 cords while holding them with 2 fingers. About not twisting already twisted ply: how can I make complex cordage without twisting it two times? Here is the picture of my "thick" cords :

Stritchev,

Actually... previously I've made 3 cords. Each one is 2 bundles. One bundle is 3 strands, the other is 4. So it's 21 strands total. I have made it with misunderstanding of the Tim Baker's advice of not using more than seven plies, so I broke them into 3 separate cords. Is the difference in strand number of bundles significant? Can you share with me a method of making 3-ply cordage? The instructions on the internet are obscure for me. I have a photo of the cords:


I feel I am having a mentality that doesn't allow me to just try things. I'm sure people strung their bows with bowline knot and don't bother.

[DC]

Any string I've made(man made materials) you start with untwisted strands. Linen may be different. I would make a string and take pictures but I'm afraid I would be giving bad advice because you're using linen. I'm sorry I got into this, I'm afraid I'm just confusing you(actually both of us)

[DC]

I found some cotton string that is twisted into sorta cord. This is the process I go through.

[DC]

And completed and pulled on as hard as I could. I didn't use any wax. I never had to twist backwards. I hope this helps.

[bownarra]

Simple - do not twist the 3 plys before making the loop.
The individual strands should be parallel and not twisted. Waxed lightly not heavily. Melt the wax by pulling through your fingers quickly to distribute it between the strands.
Make sure when you have laid in the short first section of reverse twist (as DC shows) and double it back to form the loop, the now 'doubled' section has straight untwisted parallel fibers when you mate them together before twisting to form the loop.

Practise with 2 ply strings first. They will work just as well and make things a whole lot simpler.
String making is a simple thing when somebody actually shows you but trying to explain it through a computer.....

[bownarra]

That's not to say 3 ply aren't better they are but without somebody to help you are making things harder for no real reason.

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Simple - do not twist the 3 plys before making the loop.
The individual strands should be parallel and not twisted. Waxed lightly not heavily. Melt the wax by pulling through your fingers quickly to distribute it between the strands.
Make sure when you have laid in the short first section of reverse twist (as DC shows) and double it back to form the loop, the now 'doubled' section has straight untwisted parallel fibers when you mate them together before twisting to form the loop.

Practise with 2 ply strings first. They will work just as well and make things a whole lot simpler.
String making is a simple thing when somebody actually shows you but trying to explain it through a computer.....

Now I understand why I can't twist already twisted cordage. Because it doesn't twist enough. How can I make a 2-ply bowstring with at least 18 strands? That's 9 strands per ply (bundle). The 4 strands will be mostly a dead weight in a finished string, won't they?

[bownarra]

Two bundles of 9 plys. No they won't be dead weight. The theory in TTB is very good and correct but there come times when you have to deviate from the ideal.
Like I say learn on 2 ply to begin with and then go from there once you have laying in loops perfected.

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Thank you (and everybody else) for help. I will go ahead and make my string. Will post my bow when it's ready (if everything goes fine).